tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post1143224566892185996..comments2024-03-22T15:55:34.030-04:00Comments on Evo and Proud: The Paekchong of KoreaPeter Frosthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04303172060029254340noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-76958756160344100702015-05-30T11:37:39.365-04:002015-05-30T11:37:39.365-04:00Anon,
I appreciate all comments, even negative on...Anon,<br /><br />I appreciate all comments, even negative ones. I used to be an antiracist activist and I remember feeling the sort of indignation you now feel. It might be useful if you were a little less indignant and more specific in your criticisms. As it is, I can only query my past self and ask what is wrong with this post.<br /><br />My past self tells me that mental and behavioral traits are almost entirely a product of environment - within the womb, within the family, and within the broader culture. Genetics might play a slight role in differences between individuals, but it plays absolutely no role in differences between human populations.<br /><br />At that point, my past self looks me in the eyes and tells me he was gravely wrong. Most variability in mental and behavioral traits is genetic in origin. And even the "environmental" component is not environmental in the sense we normally use that word. Much of it is due to accidents during fetal development or spontaneous genetic mutations.<br /><br />My past self then points out that this genetic variability is exposed to very different selection pressures as we go from one human population to another. Different populations differ in their cultural systems, and human culture is an agent of selection. We adapt to culture, just as we adapt to climate.<br /><br />Perhaps you have heard the chestnut that there is far more genetic variability within human populations than between them. Well, we see the same pattern between many species that are nonetheless distinct anatomically and behaviorally. Genetic differences within populations differ qualitatively from genetic differences between populations. The former are exposed to similar selection pressures and are more likely to involve genes of little or no selective value. The latter are more likely to be the result of real differences in natural selection.<br /><br />A quarter-century separates me from my past self. I don't expect to change your mind in the space of two minutes, assuming of course you are reading this. But please try to understand. I was what you are. And you will be what I am. Peter Frostnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-5467516330223201622015-05-29T03:29:41.226-04:002015-05-29T03:29:41.226-04:00This might not get posted, but I'll give it a ...This might not get posted, but I'll give it a shot. I didn't read all the comments, but I read a lot of them. I kept waiting for more objections to the post and other comments. Seriously, are you guys simple minded racists or what? I'm a Caucasian woman that has been with a Korean man for almost 20 years. Through him, and through life in general, I have known a number of asians from multiple countries and ethnic backgrounds. A great variety of personalities and none that could be easily categorized, include people from the same country, same family even. I find this blog post and most of the accompanying comments sickening. I'm posting my comment so other sane people who may accidentally find themselves on this page won't find themselves feeling alone. Yes, another sane person has been here and recognized the insanity going on. So disturbing. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-8662175015361308812014-01-11T11:39:25.856-05:002014-01-11T11:39:25.856-05:00Asia is a big place and history is quite long.Asia is a big place and history is quite long.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-39165940203860692032013-10-19T20:22:47.486-04:002013-10-19T20:22:47.486-04:00Another contributing factor is emotional expressiv...<i>Another contributing factor is emotional expressiveness is socially disapproved of and there is more anxiety about social support seeking, so less effort goes into building a social identity (which is mutually supportive with building an internal identity).</i><br /><br />They seem more nervous around people:<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYLi7nEPZG4Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-67660100927003479142013-10-19T15:07:45.452-04:002013-10-19T15:07:45.452-04:00"East Asians really are relatively really, re..."East Asians really are relatively really, really "impressionable" based on situation and have relatively little sense of a fixed self concept and little internal narrative."<br /><br />You make East Asians sound like a character from a French psychological novel.Seannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-37644094032272688112013-10-19T13:53:14.979-04:002013-10-19T13:53:14.979-04:00North Korean special forces fight harder, march fu...<i>North Korean special forces fight harder, march further on less food than any in the world. "The unit broke camp and increased their pace to more than ten kilometers per hour, despite carrying 30 kilograms of equipment each, crossing Nogo Mountain and arriving at Bibong Mountain on January" They also fear death less that any other soldiers (frequently comitting sucide rather than be captured). North Korean sniper battalion soldiers are the toughest in the world. Yet they didn't want to kill. When the Chinese first came into the Korean war thrashed the US forces (who had outrun their heavy ARTILLERY support)and captured American soldiers, they often just let them go.</i><br /><br />These are some wild claims. I don't see what the basis or evidence is for the claim that North Korean special forces are the best in the world. <br /><br />The Chinese in the Korean War did wage a propaganda war to assert that they were treating civilians and POWs well, but they did capture US and UN POWs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-7471791698863091272013-10-19T13:38:38.206-04:002013-10-19T13:38:38.206-04:00Also note that the US soldiers were ordered to kil...Also note that the US soldiers were ordered to kill civilians by the leadership.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-25048981653520966572013-10-19T13:34:02.157-04:002013-10-19T13:34:02.157-04:00Yet they didn't want to kill. When the Chinese...<i>Yet they didn't want to kill. When the Chinese first came into the Korean war thrashed the US forces (who had outrun their heavy ARTILLERY support)and captured American soldiers, they often just let them go.<br /><br />US soldiers slaughtered Korean refugees http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/coldwar/korea_usa_01.shtml.</i><br /><br />I don't see how these are even similar situations. There were large numbers of refugees crossing battle lines in a chaotic situation war-time battle situation. That's quite different from a secret assassination mission.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-27017597143498167892013-10-19T11:44:23.344-04:002013-10-19T11:44:23.344-04:00I've stated above that I see no incompatibilit...I've stated above that I see no incompatibility between having a minimally strong fixed concept which is flexible towards situation, social opinion and social pressures, with maintaining social isolation. <br /><br />I would in fact go as far to say that having little internal self concept development might make it more likely that a person "programmed" by his society to escape and hold out at all costs to unquestioningly hold that belief for longer (perhaps indefinitely in some case), not just that he is easier to "program".<br /><br />Whether Chinese shop owners give up money or not seems rather irrelevant to me (that said, when I watched the documentary The Act of Killing recently, it frankly didn't seem difficult for the Indonesian gangsters to extort from their Chinese shopkeeper prey AT ALL).<br /><br />Having a monolithic internal narrative with low internal complexity and development does indeed sound to me like "little internal narrative".<br /><br />Asians, relative to Europeans, having a hard, permanent, fixed self concept which is resistant to social pressures, rather than the opposite, is believed by no one.Mattnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-74772669123978396672013-10-19T06:10:09.393-04:002013-10-19T06:10:09.393-04:00"little internal narrative." That's ..."little internal narrative." That's why WW2 soldier Hiroo Onoda held out till the 70's in the jungle is it? Like Chinese not giving up the money to armed robbers.<br /><br />Read Badcock on mechanistic cognition's "pathological single-mindedness" and you'll understand. East Asians' mindset is a mono-narrative. The opposite (European)mentalistic tendency is seen in the novels of Dostoevsky, where what the character ends up doing is the very thing thing he didn't want to do and tried to avoid even thinking about.Seannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-50728438395614787152013-10-19T05:27:23.051-04:002013-10-19T05:27:23.051-04:00North Korean special forces fight harder, march fu...North Korean special forces fight harder, march further on less food than any in the world. "The unit broke camp and increased their pace to more than ten kilometers per hour, despite carrying 30 kilograms of equipment each, crossing Nogo Mountain and arriving at Bibong Mountain on January" They also fear death less that any other soldiers (frequently comitting sucide rather than be captured). North Korean sniper battalion soldiers are the toughest in the world. Yet they didn't want to kill. When the Chinese first came into the Korean war thrashed the US forces (who had outrun their heavy ARTILLERY support)and captured American soldiers, they often just let them go.<br /><br />US soldiers slaughtered Korean refugees <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/coldwar/korea_usa_01.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/coldwar/korea_usa_01.shtml</a>.Seannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-39484508716611445692013-10-19T03:01:36.127-04:002013-10-19T03:01:36.127-04:00Large scale agriculture is not the norm in East As...<i>Large scale agriculture is not the norm in East Asian history. Agriculture in East Asia has traditionally been based on small plots farmed by families.</i><br /><br />Sure, I mean the society being agricultural on the large scale, combined with individuals working in small groups with only their immediate families. Relative social isolation rubbing up within a large society that individuals have sporadic contact with.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-39397993494180739502013-10-18T20:34:45.321-04:002013-10-18T20:34:45.321-04:00The trouble with North Korean commandos is they...<i>The trouble with North Korean commandos is they're too nice. The post explains why.</i><br /><br />Sean, <br /><br />North Korean agents have killed many civilians before though:<br /><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Flight_858Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-81612509065054139442013-10-18T16:26:17.570-04:002013-10-18T16:26:17.570-04:00Personally I think large scale agriculture as prac...<i>Personally I think large scale agriculture as practiced by East Asians, with little close working as a team combined with large populations to get on with, might be a reason</i><br /><br />Large scale agriculture is not the norm in East Asian history. Agriculture in East Asia has traditionally been based on small plots farmed by families.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-8594659847102761982013-10-18T14:47:09.821-04:002013-10-18T14:47:09.821-04:00Sean, Peter and others -
You might be interested ...Sean, Peter and others -<br /><br />You might be interested in this, a recent summary by Heejung Kim's (female Korean researcher who seems to be one of the people seriously trying to research into gene-culture coevolution comparing East and West Eurasian populations).<br /><br />https://labs.psych.ucsb.edu/kim/heejung/kimsasaki_cultural_neurosci.pdf <br /><br />or <br /><br />http://www.yorku.ca/jsasaki/uploads/1/8/9/6/18964827/kimsasaki14_annual_review.pdf<br /><br />One of the elements described is how variations at serotonin locii may influence the focal vs dispersed (or analytic vs holistic) West Eurasian vs East Eurasian visual patterns.<br /><br />On holistic reasoning in general, one of the interesting takes from Kim's summary for me is an explanation that East Asians may be more prone to use holistic social reasoning, where context and situation is seen as really important to explain is because, well.... East Asians really are relatively really, really "impressionable" based on situation and have relatively little sense of a fixed self concept and little internal narrative.<br /><br />East Asians tend to build more interdependent self concepts that use information from other people as a basis of who they are. As opposed to internally formed self concepts. <br /><br />(Whatever reason there is for this, we can easily dismiss that this is because of sociability or collectivism or to aid sociability, because its easy to think of many situations where having a distinct "self built" individual identity is useful in socialization (division of labor, etc.). Personally I think large scale agriculture as practiced by East Asians, with little close working as a team combined with large populations to get on with, might be a reason).<br /><br />Contributing factors to this are that cognitive processes across East Asians seem less linguistic and more visual and more spatial (which are a separate facet abilities, but East Asians are probably better at both, the latter being why East Asians are overrep'd in math and science relative to IQ and the former being why they're overrep'd in visual design relative to their IQ and personality). There's less self talk and less opportunity for this to build self concept.<br /><br />Another contributing factor is emotional expressiveness is socially disapproved of and there is more anxiety about social support seeking, so less effort goes into building a social identity (which is mutually supportive with building an internal identity).<br /><br />Bringing it back to using holistic visual reasoning to work out emotions and psychology, we can see more easily why this is more of a trait in East Asians (relative to West Eurasians) - <br /><br />1. if you don't want to engage with others verbally, <br /><br />2. if other don't want to express themselves either verbally or even with body language, and <br /><br />3. if others don't have a strong internal self concept that interacts with their personality to cause behavior, being more a mix of personality and social influence<br /><br />then it suddenly becomes really much more worthwhile to adopt a strategy of looking around you to try and work out why others are doing what they're doing. because you can't talk to them, looking at them is unhelpful because they hide their emotions and looking at their environment is useful, because they're more "impressionable". thus "holistic and situational social awareness". <br /><br />rather than do what Westerners would do and simply go and ask them, then use their social experience to guess whether they're lying and to try to get a feel for how their self concept is influencing their behavior. <br /><br />And East Asians have probably evolved to be a bit better at this as a result and its not just a purely cultural strategy.Mattnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-17153428252038757162013-10-18T12:36:56.593-04:002013-10-18T12:36:56.593-04:00The trouble with North Korean commandos is they...The trouble with North Korean commandos is they're <a href="http://www.thestar.com.my/News/World/2013/07/25/Daring-raid-to-kill-president-Former-N-Korean-commando-recalls-illfated-suicide-mission.aspx" rel="nofollow">too nice</a>. The post explains why.Seannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-66246221954729988342013-10-17T19:19:03.382-04:002013-10-17T19:19:03.382-04:00Interestingly in ancient China Legalism was an off...Interestingly in ancient China Legalism was an offshoot of Taoism.<br /><br />On the wildman in China, according to Jeff Meldrum the Lishu hominin is under study over there. Though not well known on the west the preliminary dating of Lishu is remarkably late.<br /><br />And I agree that the Cagots sound heterogeneous. This only makes it even more interesting to sample the DNA of Cabot burials and living Cabot descendants, to see how an outcaste population is formed.Bones and Behaviourshttp://w11.zetanoards.com/bonesandbehavioursnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-73296120073457210562013-10-17T17:46:28.594-04:002013-10-17T17:46:28.594-04:00Anon, Taoism is indeed holistic but "[John] G...<br /><i>Anon, Taoism is indeed holistic but "[John] Gray's approving summary of Taoist doctrine could also stand as the formula of modern totalitarianism: 'THE freest human being is not one who acts on reasons he has chosen for himself, but one who never has to choose'"<br />Holists are reductionists (like Darwinists). Whether they reduce everything to genes or say that everything we perceive really is just a bundle of properties, it amounts to the same thing</i><br /><br />I wasn't referring to Taoism, and I don't understand the John Gray reference.<br /><br />I was speaking in general. Have you read Richard Nisbett's <i>The Geography of Thought: How Asians and Westerners Think Differently ... and Why</i>?<br /><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_geography_of_thought<br /><br />Nisbett argues that Asians don't reduce things into categories or taxonomies and don't have a notion of causality. "Holistic" thinking does not seem at all like reductionist thinking and is generally said to be its exact opposite, so I don't understand your claim that they amount to the same thing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-56706783325581765562013-10-17T16:34:17.300-04:002013-10-17T16:34:17.300-04:00"My rule of thumb is 8 generations. If a popu..."My rule of thumb is 8 generations. If a population has existed for less than that length of time, the selection pressures would have to be very strong to produce a different genetic profile"<br /><br />very strong but not implausible in some socio-cultural context.<br />Siberian breeders of foxes have obtain human-compatible pet foxes, with neotenic features, in only 3 generations. <br />ben10noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-34015258598094393692013-10-17T16:22:55.645-04:002013-10-17T16:22:55.645-04:00North Korean landlords, businessmen, and administ...North Korean landlords, businessmen, and administrators must have been killed when the communists took over, unless they fled ... South.Seannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-26150718017137153302013-10-17T15:48:44.490-04:002013-10-17T15:48:44.490-04:00Bones and Behaviour,
Oh Phooey! And here I was ho...Bones and Behaviour,<br /><br />Oh Phooey! And here I was hoping he had found Bigfoot DNA.<br /><br />To my knowledge, no genetic study has been done on the cagots (and there are still some living descendants). They seem to be very heterogeneous in origin; some are described as being short and olive-skinned, while others are described as being tall and fair-skinned.<br /><br />Sean,<br /><br />My rule of thumb is 8 generations. If a population has existed for less than that length of time, the selection pressures would have to be very strong to produce a different genetic profile.Peter Fros_noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-19853028205176342382013-10-17T14:11:41.382-04:002013-10-17T14:11:41.382-04:00Anon, Taoism is indeed holistic but "[John] ...Anon, Taoism is indeed holistic but "[John] Gray's approving summary of Taoist doctrine could also stand as the formula of modern totalitarianism: '<a href="" rel="nofollow">THE</a> freest human being is not one who acts on reasons he has chosen for himself, but one who never has to choose'"<br />Holists are reductionists (like Darwinists). Whether they reduce everything to genes or say that everything we perceive really is just a <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundle_theory" rel="nofollow">bundle</a> of properties, it amounts to the same thing<br /><br />Peter, do you think the <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8tutgBF6bE#t=58s" rel="nofollow">north Koreans</a> have had the time to diverge from the south Koreans in genetically mediated behavioural traits? Epigenetic modification of Audrey Hepburn, see <a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/10369861/Epigenetics-How-to-alter-your-genes.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5tkXgw2OMY" rel="nofollow">Excellent Horse-Like Lady</a>.Seannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-66025102624440068372013-10-17T10:39:37.781-04:002013-10-17T10:39:37.781-04:00@ Bones,
I saw it too.
It makes sense that no mo...@ Bones, <br />I saw it too.<br />It makes sense that no modern yetis have ever existed. <br />Why couldn't we find any skeletons of yeti/migou if they were real? or any of leftover food or dungs from such a big primate?<br />However the origin of the legend can still be debated. It's possible after all that neanderthals have survived in the oral tradition, not from real encounters with real humans that could have happen 30 or 40 000 years ago, but from the discovery of some of their skeletons in more recent times, which in turn could have fuel the legend.<br />Fossil skeletons of big extinct mammals discovered in the early historic or pre-antic period could be at the origins of other legendary animals, such as dragons.<br /><br />People's imagination can run wild. Recently I 've read the interpretation of the early Chinese astronomers of the comets. From the comet's tail shapes, classified in numerous sub types, they created an elaborate system of prediction of future events and lay it on parchments with intricate details. <br />Whatever could have been their interpretation of the finding of the skeleton of a big hominid, they surely would have use the same analytical sense. Remember chinese astronomers and scientists were 'officially' watching the sky and natural phenomena 5000 years ago and their shamanic ancestors must have done the same for much longer before. Ben10noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-91460674369832693072013-10-17T02:36:20.009-04:002013-10-17T02:36:20.009-04:00FYI Peter, a British website claims Brian Sykes ha...FYI Peter, a British website claims Brian Sykes has identified a new species of bear from the 'yeti' DNA.<br /><br />http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/mystery-yeti-solved-bigfoot-could-2460962Bones and Behaviourshttp://w11.zetaboards.com/bonesandbehavioursnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-81224821396778346792013-10-16T21:46:24.534-04:002013-10-16T21:46:24.534-04:00Peter, do you know whether anyone has sampled Cago...Peter, do you know whether anyone has sampled Cagot DNA from their burials to infer their actual origins? It should be interesting to see.Bones and Behaviourshttp://w11.zetaboards.com/bonesandbehavioursnoreply@blogger.com