tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post6948661959481096515..comments2024-03-18T03:26:46.125-04:00Comments on Evo and Proud: Origins of Northwest European guilt culture. Part IIPeter Frosthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04303172060029254340noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-71263123483052770022017-04-22T06:48:37.310-04:002017-04-22T06:48:37.310-04:00Guilt culture originated in the Hebrew TANAKH. Yo...Guilt culture originated in the Hebrew TANAKH. You can see in the Psalms and the books of prophecy an increasing philosophical rejection of face/shame culture and the emergence of an elucidated idea of supernatural justification. This is then explicitly pushed at the PRIMARY evidence of the veracity of the New Testament in the Pauline Epistles--that the inability of Christians to be shamed would be revolutionary to those who saw it, though the established powers would not understand it.<br /><br />Even now, the far northwestern part of Europe, which was the last to Christianize, is the least guilt culture and the most communalist and shame culture oriented in the West. Far from originating there, guilt/individual culture is still rejected.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-4774676610323718742014-01-14T21:47:37.507-05:002014-01-14T21:47:37.507-05:00wrote up a little response to your post:
more on ...wrote up a little response to your post:<br /><br /><a href="http://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2014/01/14/more-on-the-origins-of-guilt-in-northwestern-european-populations/" rel="nofollow">more on the origins of guilt in northwestern european populations</a><br /><br />(^_^)hbd chickhttp://hbdchick.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-88528457593990758092013-12-21T06:21:14.878-05:002013-12-21T06:21:14.878-05:00One to three men fathered most western Europeans?....<a href="http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/one-to-three-men-fathered-most-western.html" rel="nofollow">One to three men fathered most western Europeans?</a>. <br /><br />Now how could the putative expansion be sustained? The most obvious way was the founder(s) got in on the ground floor of an expansion into territory with plentiful resources and zero competition.<br /><br />"<a href="http://basementgeographer.com/doggerland-ancient-europe-underwater/" rel="nofollow">DOGGERLAND</a> would have appeared as a low-lying, undulating plain that eventually became lush with vegetation and fauna as the retreating ice allowed the land to be colonised; perhaps the lushest locales in Europe." <br /><br />Are you begining to get the picture?Seannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-48945558429049627392013-12-20T13:28:27.350-05:002013-12-20T13:28:27.350-05:00The Doggerlanders went to what is now England and ...<i>The Doggerlanders went to what is now England and Holland, which were the first commerial nations.</i><br /><br />Doggerland disappeared by around 6,000 BC. <br /><br />R1b is the most common y-chromosome haplogroup in England and the Netherlands. It's believed to have been introduced by Indo-European speakers long after Doggerland disappeared. <br /><br />The northern Italian city-states were commercial states before the rise of the English and Dutch commercial empires. R1b is also the most haplogroup of northern Italy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-5921380621060936762013-12-20T09:09:51.300-05:002013-12-20T09:09:51.300-05:00Bollongino et al found there were 'hunter gath...<a href="http://www.sciencemag.org/content/342/6157/479.abstract" rel="nofollow">Bollongino et al</a> found there were 'hunter gatherers' in Neolithic Germany with a "freshwater fish diet, ... carrying mitochondrial DNA sequences typical of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers.". The west european Mesolithic techniques for exploitation of fish resources must have been extremely advanced if they were competitive with farming communities living right beside them for 2000 years, as Bollongino found. One must presume there was a lot of co-operation. For the origin of these efficient processing techniques I suspect Doggerland. It was likely the richest fresh water fishing ground in Europe. So a lot of people depending on fish, and when Doggerland began to decline, that would create the pressure for methods for more efficient processing of marine food. They moved around on giant dug out canoes, one 30 feet long has been found. From what I have read about Inuit whaling, their boats are crewed only with those they totally trust. The Doggerlanders went to what is now England and Holland, which were the first commerial nations. <br /><br />Low digit ration is associated with competitiveness and lack of empathy. High digit ratio is associated with co-operation and altruism. England, Holland Germany, Poland have very high digit ratios. Denmark has the highest in the world, and that was where the burials Melchior et al studied were.Seannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-73238647907283080052013-12-19T19:46:28.947-05:002013-12-19T19:46:28.947-05:00The documentary I just linked to begins with narra...The documentary I just linked to begins with narration saying that 4,000 years ago the mesolithic hunter-gatherers on the north coast of Europe disappeared with the arrival of the Indo-Europeans who introduced individualism, cultural & commercial complexity, modernity, etc. <br /><br />Do you dispute this characterization? Do you think the influence was in the opposite direction - from the mesolithics to the Indo-Europeans, rather than the traditional view?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-73596588342810602392013-12-19T19:38:58.526-05:002013-12-19T19:38:58.526-05:00If we're talking about the hunter-fisher-gathe...<i>If we're talking about the hunter-fisher-gatherers of the North Sea and Baltic, a number of cemeteries have been found but the burials in them seem to be individual, with people being buried in very different ways.</i><br /><br />The traditional view is that individualism and greater cultural and commercial sophistication was introduced into Northern Europe by the Indo-Europeans. For example see this documentary for the traditional view:<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmHXBXG7LooAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-76515877583394898102013-12-19T17:47:01.861-05:002013-12-19T17:47:01.861-05:00The Sami are reindeer herders with a simple kin-ba...<i>The Sami are reindeer herders with a simple kin-based mode of social organization. The Baltic peoples lie to the west of the Hajnal Line and thus exhibit the Western European Marriage Pattern, which seems to be associated with behavioral modernity.</i><br /><br />Right, but your argument here is that the Mesolithics are associated with behavioral modernity. The Sami and the Baltic peoples have the highest amount of Mesolithic ancestry and they've been relatively backward.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-41711160590697055982013-12-19T15:45:51.860-05:002013-12-19T15:45:51.860-05:00Truepeers,
Islam is a very monotheistic religion,...Truepeers,<br /><br />Islam is a very monotheistic religion, yet most Muslim societies rely much more on shame than on guilt. Islam also has no doctrine of original sin.<br /><br />I'm interested in religion, but I would question the view that Germanic pagan beliefs constitute a "religion" as we understand the term, i.e., a cohesive system of normative moral beliefs. In other words: notions of "right and wrong." Another problem is that most of what we know comes from Christian observers who lived among people who were already partially Christianized. This is a problem with Beowulf. Is it a witness to genuine pagan beliefs or is it simply a Christian's interpretation of paganism?<br /><br />Anon,<br /><br />If we're talking about the hunter-fisher-gatherers of the North Sea and Baltic, a number of cemeteries have been found but the burials in them seem to be individual, with people being buried in very different ways.<br /><br />Mikke,<br /><br />The Finns are a clear example of population continuity, since they adopted agriculture within historic times. Yet according to the mtDNA data, they seem to have been largely replaced.<br /><br />Anon,<br /><br />The Sami are reindeer herders with a simple kin-based mode of social organization. The Baltic peoples lie to the west of the Hajnal Line and thus exhibit the Western European Marriage Pattern, which seems to be associated with behavioral modernity.<br /><br />Sean,<br /><br />I believe that guilt evolved out of shame along a trajectory of increasing internalization. In the initial phases of this trajectory, people believed that spirits were watching their shameful acts. Then, further along, this internal watchdog became merged with the self, i.e., one's internal representation of oneself.<br /><br />I need to read up more on ancient fishing of the North Sea and the Baltic. To what degree was fishing a high-trust activity that encompassed large numbers of unrelated individuals? Peter Fros_noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-84858480946310693162013-12-18T17:24:40.124-05:002013-12-18T17:24:40.124-05:00Doggerland
Using fish traps would have meant bein...<a href="http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2012/12/doggerland/spinney-text" rel="nofollow">Doggerland</a><br /><br />Using fish traps would have meant being in cold water, and body heat can be lost 25 times faster in cold water than in cold air. Observers remarked on how the Yahgan Indians were remarkably resistant to cold. Maybe haplogroup U was really an adaptation to fishing.Seannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-79255375900805505902013-12-17T15:55:48.725-05:002013-12-17T15:55:48.725-05:00The 'fake' Mandela memorial interpreter sa...<a href="http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/16/fake-mandela-memorial-interpreter-schizophrenia-signing" rel="nofollow">The 'fake' Mandela memorial interpreter said it all</a>Seannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-50358813253889827912013-12-17T15:49:11.950-05:002013-12-17T15:49:11.950-05:00The north west coast in Mesolithic times would tak...The north west coast in Mesolithic times would take in Doggerland which was a rich hunting and fishing ground. When it disappeared the Doggerlanders headed for north west Europe, there seems to have been a lot of fighting, but still, the population of NW Europe must have been massively boosted by the 'climate refugees'. Everyone pulling their weight for the efficient exploiting of food resources would have been a must with all those extra people.<br /><br />The Neolithic invasion of Europe stalled when it reached Northern Europe. The farmers were up against a far greater population density in north Europe, and just maybe the Doggerland wars had forged the Euro hunters into rather formidable opponents.<br /><br />Few more thoughts:- Indo-Europeans were warriors into honour, and fear of shame if they lost honour. Much like the <a href="http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=10lgPpywnyYC&pg=PA195&lpg=PA195&dq=alasdair+macintyre+shame&source=bl&ots=H3S8chNhEn&sig=3xQoA8XuMvaau8RPLy-8E1ktihE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=AZWwUoC_CYOihgeQxIG4CA&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=alasdair%20macintyre%20shame&f=false" rel="nofollow">Early Greek tradition</a>. <br /><br />Christian believers in an afterlife would be in fear of God if they did something that made them liable to punishment in an afterlife. That is not guilt in the sense of blaming oneself. <br /><br />What about vicarious guilt, ie feeling guilty for what someone else has done?Seannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-33279329784596457822013-12-17T05:57:32.408-05:002013-12-17T05:57:32.408-05:00@Anonymous
Re Slavs:
http://www.worldvaluessurvey...@Anonymous<br />Re Slavs:<br /><br />http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/wvs/articles/folder_published/article_base_54<br /><br />Compare where Russia, Poland and Czechs (all Slavs) lie in this map. Czechs are virtually the same as Germans. <br />Here:<br />http://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2013/09/07/national-individualism-collectivism-scores/<br /><br />You can look at the collectivism/individualism. Look where is Poland (seven places behind Germany, 5 places ahead Austria).<br /><br />Or look at those two maps:<br /><br />http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/individualism-map.gif<br />http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/individualism-map-2.gif<br />(Hungary? WTF?)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-83476912806644089852013-12-16T21:35:13.260-05:002013-12-16T21:35:13.260-05:00"Sean14 December 2013 17:18:00 GMT-5
The mos..."Sean14 December 2013 17:18:00 GMT-5<br /><br />The most direct way for 'guilt' genes of a hunter - fisherman to flourish and spread would be if the guilt conferred a propensity to be a better provider for his family."<br /><br />Another just-so story which flies in the face of the facts. NW Europeans do not have bigger families. And their labor usually serves to support the families of others.bleachnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-65816058012897826792013-12-16T17:37:46.466-05:002013-12-16T17:37:46.466-05:00The Sami, northeastern European, and Baltics have ...The Sami, northeastern European, and Baltics have the highest degree of mesolithic ancestry and they aren't particularly known for being behaviorally modern. They've been relatively backward. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-3508149012896515322013-12-16T17:36:02.298-05:002013-12-16T17:36:02.298-05:00Wonderful stuff.
1) The agriculture of "Fin...Wonderful stuff. <br /><br />1) The agriculture of "Finland" was nothing like the agriculture of Mesopotamia. Google the term huuhta, swidden, or slash-and-burn agriculture, and see also this English translation of Per Martin Tvengsberg on the metsasuomalaiset:<br /><br />http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Slash_and_burn<br /><br />(My own people, btw.)<br /><br />2) The US was most certainly NOT founded by English in the mid-Atlantic, but by metsasuomalaiset Finns from Sweden.<br /><br />http://nc-chap.org/cranehook/pdfs/forestFinns.pdf<br /><br />http://nc-chap.org/cranehook/pdfs/materialCulture.pdfMikkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13565007352565597092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-42740325133970760892013-12-16T16:33:25.943-05:002013-12-16T16:33:25.943-05:00There is also discontinuity with the arrival of th...There is also discontinuity with the arrival of the Corded Ware culture in northern and northeastern Europe about 5,000 years BP. The Corded Ware artifacts are more sophisticated and indicative of more complex and sophisticated economic activity and extensive trade networks than the previous mesolithic culture. There is also evidence of greater individualism being introduced by the Corded Ware culture. For example, individual burials are introduced with the Corded Ware. Previously, the mesolithics had collective burials.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-40153863066540135952013-12-16T16:20:42.287-05:002013-12-16T16:20:42.287-05:00BUt where is the evidence for the guilt the author...BUt where is the evidence for the guilt the author imputes to these Baltic fishermen?<br /><br />I find it hard to conceive how guilt could come into existence absent a monotheistic understanding of human nature - the idea that we all share in a universal being. Yes, this idea is implicit in the worldview of pagans, who can inutit a unity in their diversity, but for full-fledged guilt to emerge, surely one has to feel guilty towards a well-understood universal truth.<br /><br />I still think the Jews are the world's guilt specialists - isn't it obvious? Why does the author have apparent minor interest in religion, a fundamental component of every human society? Just, as an example, to speak of the nuclear family without bringing up the church's long war against extended family loyalties and inheritance srikes me odd.truepeershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16401984575637492845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-48685696331285819002013-12-16T15:10:38.091-05:002013-12-16T15:10:38.091-05:00"Slavs" meaning who? Czechs, Slovaks, Po...<i>"Slavs" meaning who? Czechs, Slovaks, Poles? Or Russians? Because there are huge differences between features of Slavic nations.</i><br /><br />Why not describe how all of them fit the pattern or don't separately to you apprehension and then we can test against third party sources and Peter's theory?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-19938355534507726062013-12-16T14:01:57.572-05:002013-12-16T14:01:57.572-05:00Guilt is awesome because it promotes socially bene...Guilt is awesome because it promotes socially beneficial behavior without needing large external enforcement. Maybe they just could not afford to pay for cops given their hardscrabble existence and so needed an internal enforcement mechanism to keep society functioning.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-77358148374874779762013-12-16T13:37:58.676-05:002013-12-16T13:37:58.676-05:00Then why is shame more important than guilt in Jap...<b>Then why is shame more important than guilt in Japan, where people tend to be very future-oriented?</b><br /><br />That is a good question. Clearly I need to think about this more.Beyond Anonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-84386702110192367212013-12-16T13:36:28.507-05:002013-12-16T13:36:28.507-05:00This seems to be one of those debates where temper...This seems to be one of those debates where tempers flare. If we look at the archaeological evidence, we see evidence of population replacement in Central Europe. Even in that area, these intrusive farming settlements seem to disappear after a certain time. In other words, the farmers replace the natives, only to be replaced by other people.<br /><br />If we look at Scandinavia and the North European Plain, the archaeological evidence indicates continuity rather than replacement. The following is from Price's review article:<br /><br />"The change from hunting-gathering to farming in southern Scandinavia was not sudden. The gradual shift to agriculture can be seen as a four-stage transition. Sedentary groups of Mesolithic foragers avoided the arduous requirements of agriculture in favor of wild foods for some time but gradually imported tools and weapons of Neolithic manufacture from the south after 3,600 BC. Funnelbeaker pottery, domesticates, and long barrows mark the appearance of the first farmers around 3,100 BC; but a fully Neolithic economy is not in place until after 2,600 BC. It is clear that contact with farmers preceded actual cultivation and herding by at least 500 years. Agriculture became the primary subsistence regime only 1,000 years later ..."Peter Fros_noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-25462502097495631102013-12-16T07:15:52.076-05:002013-12-16T07:15:52.076-05:00"Slavs" meaning who? Czechs, Slovaks, Po..."Slavs" meaning who? Czechs, Slovaks, Poles? Or Russians? Because there are huge differences between features of Slavic nations. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-84373041549176686182013-12-16T04:12:33.432-05:002013-12-16T04:12:33.432-05:00In reality, it was the hunter-fisher-gatherers of ...<i>In reality, it was the hunter-fisher-gatherers of the North Sea and the Baltic who led the way to behavioral modernity, i.e., individualism, reduced emphasis on kinship, and the market as the main organizing principle of social and economic life.</i><br /><br />There is also the view that Jews have been influential in promoting "behavioral modernity." See for example Yuri Slezkine's <i>The Jewish Century.</i><br /><br />http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2013/12/yuri-slezkine-jewish-century.html<br /><br />"The Modern Age is the Jewish Age, and the twentieth century, in particular, is the Jewish Century. Modernization is about everyone becoming urban, mobile, literate, articulate, intellectually intricate, physically fastidious, and occupationally flexible. It is about learning how to cultivate people and symbols, not fields or herds. It is about pursuing wealth for the sake of learning, learning for the sake of wealth, and both wealth and learning for their own sake. It is about transforming peasants and princes into merchants and priests, replacing inherited privilege with acquired prestige, and dismantling social estates for the benefit of individuals, nuclear families, and book-reading tribes (nations). Modernization, in other words, is about everyone becoming Jewish.<br /><br />Some peasants and princes have done better than others, but no one is better at being Jewish than the Jews themselves. In the age of capital, they are the most creative entrepreneurs; in the age of alienation, they are the most experienced exiles; and in the age of expertise, they are the most proficient professionals. Some of the oldest Jewish specialties-commerce, law, medicine, textual interpretation, and cultural mediation-have become the most fundamental (and the most Jewish) of all modern pursuits. It is by being exemplary ancients that the Jews have become model moderns."<br /><br />Also see the German Historical School scholar (and friend and colleague of Weber) Werner Sombart's <i>The Jews and Modern Capitalism</i>, in which he refutes Max Weber’s theory of the Protestant ethic, arguing that Jews introduced the spirit of capitalism into Northern Europe after being dispersed by the Inquisition.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-78334042971464161642013-12-16T03:34:05.612-05:002013-12-16T03:34:05.612-05:00I'm arguing that guilt culture is part of a la...<i>I'm arguing that guilt culture is part of a larger behavioral complex that includes the Western European Marriage Pattern. The WEMP eastern boundary seems to be a line stretching from St. Petersburg to Trieste. To the south and east, societies tend to be more shame-based than guilt-based.</i><br /><br />Peter, which are the parts you're see Slavs and Northeast Europeans as having, since they probably have less guilt or individualism and are a good less oriented towards capitalism (judging by their history) than say Italians or Spanish?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com