tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post803436270651030729..comments2024-03-18T03:26:46.125-04:00Comments on Evo and Proud: More on French Canadians and Tay Sach'sPeter Frosthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04303172060029254340noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-69321084369945456792011-06-30T07:41:49.526-04:002011-06-30T07:41:49.526-04:00"Indeed, being restricted to trades such as f...<i>"Indeed, being restricted to trades such as finance would facilitate mobility and horizontal transmission."</i> <br /><br />It's completely unclear what that means, JimBo never spells it out.<br /><br />Anyway, the occupations of Jews did alter radically in the 16th century when 'Village Jews' appeared and the subsequent Jewish population explosion must have primarily resulted from the phenonomen Peter has identified:- <b>"...specifically in the 1600s when large numbers of Jewish craftsmen and craftswomen began to enter the "proto-industrial" niche, i.e., family-based cottage industries that produced on contract for urban merchants and that served relatively large and volatile markets" </b>Todnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-57997423092249026542011-06-29T05:31:19.505-04:002011-06-29T05:31:19.505-04:00My expectation is that the purported evolution of ...My expectation is that the purported evolution of behavioral characteristics of Jews such as high intelligence are most likely associated with the evolution of virulence, which is founded on horizontal transmission. This is founded on their nation migrating through evolutionary time among multiple national territories. This, in turn, is founded on their ability to express their ethnic genetic interests despite being dispersed.<br /><br />This would swamp any evolutionary pressures from being restricted to certain trades. Indeed, being restricted to trades such as finance would facilitate mobility and horizontal transmission.Horacenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-39908114903303093972011-06-26T12:57:32.974-04:002011-06-26T12:57:32.974-04:00"Jewish marital practices, cannot explain the...<b>"Jewish marital practices, cannot explain the differences in mean IQ we see between Ashkenazim and Sephardim."</b> <br /><br />I think that line of argument requires the Sephardim to never have been much smarter than gentiles and never have suffered a collective setback to their way of life that could account for the loss of that superiority. <br /><br />The Sephardi <i>did</i> suffer a setback to their development but up until their expulsion from Spain they were clearly superior in IQ to gentiles and quite possibly every bit as clever as the Ashkenazim <i>of that time</i>. ( The success of the Conversos leaves no doubt about their genetic superiority (see <a href="http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZFr2ffNYt_MC&pg=PA181&dq=kevin+macdonald+conversos&hl=en&ei=m1gHTreXO8KKhQe0wfi3DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false" rel="nofollow">Here p.180-82</a><br /><br /><b>success on that exam was key to entry into good-paying jobs and a number of other tangible benefits. A prospective father-in-law does not have the same leeway as the Chinese Empire to mobilize resources for family formation</b><br /><br />An Ashkenazi noted as a scholar would not be be poor for long. He would received a range of valuable emoluments.<br /><br />1. A wealthy man's daughter as wife.<br /><br />2. Extremely high status in the community of a kind which brought economic benefits For example a ruling granted business monopolies on trade with gentiles to eminent scholars.<br /><br />3. Gifts, even if a scholar was well-off.<br /><br />4.Protection from anyone speaking against him. This was enforced by bans and fines.Todnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-30778687567375836602011-06-25T13:31:15.420-04:002011-06-25T13:31:15.420-04:00Tod,
I half-agree with you. My main problem is th...Tod,<br /><br />I half-agree with you. My main problem is that Jewish culture, i.e., Jewish marital practices, cannot explain the differences in mean IQ we see between Ashkenazim and Sephardim.<br /><br />Also, your comparison with the Chinese civil service exam does not seem appropriate here, since success on that exam was key to entry into good-paying jobs and a number of other tangible benefits. A prospective father-in-law does not have the same leeway as the Chinese Empire to mobilize resources for family formation.<br /><br />But, yes, I agree that marital practices were undoubtedly a critical factor.Peter Frostnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-54774417362996241652011-06-24T08:02:54.355-04:002011-06-24T08:02:54.355-04:00"Before the 20th century, it was common pract...<b>"Before the 20th century, it was common practice to enquire about the family background of a prospective son-in-law or daughter-in-law. I'm not convinced that this was a specifically Jewish culture trait."</b><br /><br />The prospective Ashkenazi father-in-law gave his future son-in -law an actual <i>examination</i> - <br /><a href="http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZFr2ffNYt_MC&pg=PA284&dq=a+people+that+shall+dwell+alone+prospective+son-in-law&hl=en&ei=YHQETr75E4a98gOsuKTEDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false" rel="nofollow">APTSDA</a>.<br /><br />I think your post on Asian IQ is consistant with Talmudic study being responsible for some of the Jewish superiority. (If it worked for the Imperial Mandrins why not Ashkenazim ?). ASPM and scribes too. It seems not unlikely to me that Jews have such a high verbal IQ because of selection for success in Talmudic scholarship and <i>disputation</i>.(There is a book called "What is Talmud?: the art of disagreement") Successful cottage industry entrepreneurship does not select for verbal ability or else the English would be also have IQs skewed to the verbal.<br /> <br />I don't doubt that demographic expansion due to a change in the value of child labor in family-run workshops is responsible for much of the IQ advantage, but I think the Ashkenazi intellect was was filtered through Jewish culture and further refined.Todnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-63996012098410124172011-06-23T17:35:45.858-04:002011-06-23T17:35:45.858-04:00Tod,
I disagree with Kevin on this point. Before ...Tod,<br /><br />I disagree with Kevin on this point. Before the 20th century, it was common practice to enquire about the family background of a prospective son-in-law or daughter-in-law. I'm not convinced that this was a specifically Jewish culture trait.<br /><br />If we look at the demographic history of the Ashkenazi community, there was steady but sluggish growth until about 1600, when it may have numbered c. 200,000 individuals and then a rapid acceleration that ended around 1900. Was this demographic expansion due to a change in marital advice? No. It was due to a change in the economic environment that greatly increased the value of child labor in family-run workshops.<br /><br />Maybe I've been too influenced by historical materialism. I agree that ideological factors are important, but their role here would have been secondary.Peter Frostnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-55925032001289041572011-06-22T13:15:29.738-04:002011-06-22T13:15:29.738-04:00"Did people back then understand the genetic ...<b>"Did people back then understand the genetic nature of Tay Sach's?"</b><br /><br />According to <a href="http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZFr2ffNYt_MC&pg=PA276&dq=Jewish+marrying+a+scholars&hl=en&ei=JiACTr28KJKFhQe_nLWuDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&sqi=2&ved=0CFIQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=kest&f=false" rel="nofollow">'A People That Shall Dwell Alone'</a> Jewish people back then did understand that a family with several members suffering from a disease was not a family to be marrying into. Moreover the qualities of the brothers of a prospective bride were paid attention to (sex linked factors). A case of mental illness in the family was profoundly damaging to the marriage prospects of all family members.<br /><br /><br /><b>"the main check on family size was the age of marriage. Men tended to marry once they had the means to support a family. If a young man came from an economically successful family, he could marry earlier and hence have a larger family."</b><br /><br />The supreme resource for obtaining a good marriage was having scholars in the family tree (yikhus) which many could trace back six generations A good scholar could marry very young to the daughter of a successful businessman and be supported with free room and board (kest) as well as a large dowry.<a href="http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6c7JgZEb9MgC&pg=PA31&dq=kest+parasitic+groom&hl=en&ei=Lx8CTsWyII-ahQfz_9CyDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=kest%20parasitic%20groom&f=false" rel="nofollow">'Is my mother-in-law paralyzed that I should have to earn a living'</a> Scholarship was more highly regarded than business success and although the two often went together businessmen supported the most eminent scholars to such an extent that many became wealthy in their own right.<br /><br />I think there is something in the Talmudic scholarship theory of Ashkenazi intelligence.Todnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-9840745312970712322011-06-21T15:42:09.921-04:002011-06-21T15:42:09.921-04:00Tod,
Yes, the bigger the population, and the long...Tod,<br /><br />Yes, the bigger the population, and the longer the time span, the greater the chance of getting an optimal package of adaptations. <br /><br />Conversely, you get "quick fixes" when the population is small and moving into a new niche over a short span of time.<br /><br />For Ashkenazi Jews, Greg sees this process beginning in the Middle Ages. I see it starting later, specifically in the 1600s when large numbers of Jewish craftsmen and craftswomen began to enter the "proto-industrial" niche, i.e., family-based cottage industries that produced on contract for urban merchants and that served relatively large and volatile markets.<br /><br />I really don't know about your last question. Did people back then understand the genetic nature of Tay Sach's? Also, the main check on family size was the age of marriage. Men tended to marry once they had the means to support a family. If a young man came from an economically successful family, he could marry earlier and hence have a larger family.Peter Frostnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-34590148436673254612011-06-21T05:04:18.762-04:002011-06-21T05:04:18.762-04:00As I understand it you're saying that over eno...As I understand it you're saying that over enough generations ordinary populations can supply genetically capable people who can fill the intellectually demanding occupations without the drawbacks of Tay Sach’s style alleles. <br /><br />By my way of thinking Ashkenazim having a lot of these TS style alleles rather weighs against Ashkenazi genetic disease/IQ-associated alleles having been under selection for the extended period that Cochran and Harpending suggest. Bearing in mind what Cochran says about natural selection optimizing function; why would sub optimal quick fixes still be around a millenium later ?<br /><br />(Of course the countervailing veiw would be that the Ashkenazim were in cutthroat competition with each other and needed all the edge they could get )<br /><br />The homozygotes for disease/IQ alleles among the Ashkenazim must have been remarkably common, given their consanguineous marriages. Could this have caused parents to have extra children to compensate for the sickly homozygote children ?Todnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-33485323367519841732011-06-20T14:23:05.756-04:002011-06-20T14:23:05.756-04:00J,
Your first question is easy to answer. To go f...J,<br /><br />Your first question is easy to answer. To go from 0% to 7.6%, in terms of heterozygote frequency, the carriers must have had a clear reproductive advantage.<br /><br />How much of an advantage? This is a question I hope to answer. There is genealogical information on Tay Sach's carriers. So it should be possible to calculate their mean fertility rate (although I'm more interested in the number of children who survived to adulthood). I also hope to find information on the occupational profile of carriers.<br /><br />Sykes,<br /><br />Yes, evolution can move a lot faster than most people think. Evolutionary psychologists in particular are handicapped by the idea that nothing special has happened since the Pleistocene.<br /><br />Tod,<br /><br />Yes, and there were also many German mercenaries who settled in Beauce County after fighting the American revolutionary army in and around Quebec City.<br /><br />Anon,<br /><br />Getting a book published is not easy. Most publishing houses will not consider a manuscript unless it's submitted by a literary agent. And it's impossible to get a literary agent unless you've already published. <br /><br />I might be able to find an agent if my recently published book sells well (i.e., Femmes claires, hommes foncés : Les racines oubliées du colorisme).Peter Frostnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-49394256670879448222011-06-19T15:02:30.482-04:002011-06-19T15:02:30.482-04:00Beauce County "Selection thus had more leeway...Beauce County <b>"Selection thus had more leeway to favor individuals who had the necessary aptitudes while not suffering the costs that lysosomal storage illnesses impose on homozygotes. [...] Beauce County, a region south of Quebec City that covers the Chaudière valley up to the American border."</b><br /><br /><br />One aspect of Beauce County that may have been significant is its location, handy for the Loyalists who were kicked out of the US after 1776. Here is an interesting one with Beauce connections <a href="http://www.biographi.ca/009004-119.01-e.php?BioId=37735" rel="nofollow">George Pozer</a>Todnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-4341082239513120112011-06-19T09:05:59.079-04:002011-06-19T09:05:59.079-04:00This is very interesting. The French half of my fa...This is very interesting. The French half of my family comes from the Trois Rivieres region.<br /><br />Two hundred years may be enough for significant genetic change. A Russian scientist domesticated wild foxes in less than 20 generation. Two hundred years is about 10 human generations.<br /><br />Also, French Canadians were isolated from their English masters even in Western Quebec. The total number of French immigrants to Quebec was only about 10,000 (almost everyone claims descent from Louis Hebert), so the evolving the population was almost a bottleneck.sykes.1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10954672321945289871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-30426630508088166112011-06-19T08:50:37.512-04:002011-06-19T08:50:37.512-04:00The vegetative growth of the French Canadian popul...The vegetative growth of the French Canadian population was exceptionally fast. Was the TS mutation growing faster? How much faster?Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05676167615981895061noreply@blogger.com