tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post8255989805300537167..comments2024-03-22T15:55:34.030-04:00Comments on Evo and Proud: Cheddar ManPeter Frosthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04303172060029254340noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-13327158578172321542018-03-15T09:39:00.723-04:002018-03-15T09:39:00.723-04:00"But what about the Neolithic farmers? How di..."But what about the Neolithic farmers? How did they get to be white-skinned? Most likely through introgression. As they advanced into Europe, they intermixed with the native population."<br /><br />That ignores the fact that Anatolian farmes seem to have been whiter-skinned compared to the local WHG and indeed darkened as they mixed more with them.<br /><br />"heir wave of advance came to a halt around 7500 BP along a line stretching from the Low Countries to the Black Sea"<br /><br />You must have missed that they were present all the way up in Scandinavia and Poland.<br /><br />"There was another Mesolithic population, however: the hunter-fisher-gatherers along the shores of the Baltic and the North Sea"<br /><br />What are you even talking about? North Sea and Baltic hunter-gatherers were WHG. The relevant area is the steppe and forest steppe.<br /><br />Your hypothesis was basically wrong and you'll keep trying to save it no matter what.<br /><br />"The Northwest European mindset developed much later, in the late Mesolithic (between 8500 and 6,000 years ago). The geographical areas are also different. The former developed in northeastern Europe (and apparently, according to the latest ancient DNA evidence, as far east as mid-Siberia). The latter developed along the shores of the Baltic and the North Sea"<br /><br />Are you still not getting that those mixed steppe and forest steppe populations replaced most of the local ancestry in the Baltic and the North Sea area? Stop trying to save your theory, man, it's over. Even if part of the ancestry of those steppe/forest steppe populations ultimately came from "Northwest" (via post-Swiderian), it still doesn't change what happened later. Northwest Europe and the Baltic aren't that special after all.<br /><br />"If we look at those European peoples who were unaffected by this expansion, such as the Finnish peoples, we don't see major differences in outward appearance or psychological traits (regardless of whether the latter are genetically or culturally determined)."<br /><br />That's because Finns are mostly the descendants of forest steppe populations, themselves mixed, with some other admixture.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-1134335349208275352018-03-06T21:55:03.813-05:002018-03-06T21:55:03.813-05:00Peter, I have three points/questions:
Surely the ...Peter, I have three points/questions:<br /><br />Surely the WHG for all their (probable) dark complexion and wavy/curly hair were -- more or less -- Caucasian in facial appearance ? And why light eyes but not light skin ? And were these the same 'Reindeer Age' people who did all the cave paintings ?<br /><br /> ThanksAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-80167307180495493752018-03-06T17:14:54.368-05:002018-03-06T17:14:54.368-05:00Sykes, no it's the Bell Beaker folk that study...Sykes, no it's the Bell Beaker folk that study is about, and they were quite different to the Celts in appearance and a bit darker in skin colour although the mixing of Beaker and Anatolian Farmers is supposed to have resulted in people whose remains looked like the Celt invaders who came later. The Celts were definitely the lightest skinned of all the invaders of Britain (including Anglo Saxons) look at the average Scottish or Irish skin tone.Seannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-17711943692919734912018-03-05T00:30:42.789-05:002018-03-05T00:30:42.789-05:00Peter,
Thanks for the explanation. Having read t...Peter, <br />Thanks for the explanation. Having read through your recent blog posts, I see that you already addressed the issue on Sept. 21, so I appreciate your patience in explaining it again.<br />I started reading the Unz Review when you moved your blog there and was delighted to find Razib Khan also present. Before that, I didn't know the Unz Review existed. Since Ron Unz has political ambitions, I assume his Review is a tool to further those aims.<br />I look forward to reading more of your blog posts in the day to come!Wandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09112923932070896374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-79725893364214777712018-03-04T11:09:20.350-05:002018-03-04T11:09:20.350-05:00The aDNA from Kostenki (Markina Gora) reveals a pe...The aDNA from Kostenki (Markina Gora) reveals a person with very dark skin and dark eyes, but the phenotype of Kostenki-14 was not largely African. That was an artifact of his low nasal height alone, and as we know, one individual might not represent the whole population, and one region of an individual's face cannot outweigh the total signal of his entire anatomy.<br /><br />https://link.springer.com/article/10.1134/S1019331617010099<br /><br />Alveolar prognathism is, of course, not especially SSA.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-41671644668241425462018-03-04T08:34:02.067-05:002018-03-04T08:34:02.067-05:00Well, over at Eurogenes Blog a recent paper is bei...Well, over at Eurogenes Blog a recent paper is being cited that claims a 90% replacement of the British population by the Indo-European immigrants:<br /><br />http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/<br /> <br />Those would be the Celts, who came to dominate the British Isles.<br /><br /><br />Also, Nicholas Ostler, in "Empires of the Word" around p. 310, notes that Briton is the only Roman province not to produce a Romance language. He speculates that the native Britons were largely decimated from central and eastern Britain by the bubonic plague epidemic that ravaged the Roman world in the 6th Century. The invading Anglo-Saxons presumable escaped the plague, because they were not connected to the Roman world economy, and they replaced the Britons throughout much of the island.sykes.1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10954672321945289871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-51478836164434593312018-03-04T02:47:04.896-05:002018-03-04T02:47:04.896-05:00The underlying problem, I believe, is that Ron see...<i>The underlying problem, I believe, is that Ron sees The Unz Review as a means to push the Alt Right in a certain direction:<br />- a more sympathetic attitude toward Hispanic immigration<br />- a more `agnostic` attitude toward HBD, and an overall reduced emphasis on HBD<br />- a more anti-Jewish and anti-Israel attitude</i><br /><br />I don't know that Unz is sympathetic toward Hispanic immigration. I haven't seen him argue in favor of Hispanic immigration or oppose restrictions on Hispanic immigration. Nor has he censored articles and comments critical of Hispanic immigration. Most of the anti-immigration content on The Unz Review, of which there is a lot, is critical of Hispanic immigration, either directly or indirectly, if only because Hispanics have comprised a large percentage of recent immigrants. What Ron has been critical of are claims about Hispanic crime rates. I don't think that makes him necessarily sympathetic toward Hispanic immigration, unless one thinks that casting it in anything but the most extremely negative terms makes one sympathetic. <br /><br />At any rate, if you follow the alt-right, you'll know that Unz doesn't have to push the alt-right in the direction you outline above because it's already there. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-38620923950144204872018-03-03T17:57:04.104-05:002018-03-03T17:57:04.104-05:00Anon,
Personally, I think the Indo-European expan...Anon,<br /><br />Personally, I think the Indo-European expansion is overrated. If we look at those European peoples who were unaffected by this expansion, such as the Finnish peoples, we don't see major differences in outward appearance or psychological traits (regardless of whether the latter are genetically or culturally determined).<br /><br />The evidence for demographic replacement in this case suffers from the same methodological flaws that I pointed out in this post. All differences in allele frequencies are attributed to demographic replacement, to the exclusion of natural selection and genetic drift. Estimates of demographic replacement are thus greatly inflated.<br /><br />Yes, I'm familiar with Duchesne's work. Nobody is 100% right, including me.<br /><br />Wanda,<br /><br />There are unresolved issues between myself and Ron. The underlying problem, I believe, is that Ron sees The Unz Review as a means to push the Alt Right in a certain direction:<br />- a more sympathetic attitude toward Hispanic immigration<br />- a more `agnostic` attitude toward HBD, and an overall reduced emphasis on HBD<br />- a more anti-Jewish and anti-Israel attitude<br /><br />I disagree fundamentally with the above roadmap. I think it promotes a distorted view of reality, and like Razib I no longer wanted to be associated with it.<br /><br />I never lost my ability to moderate comments because I never fully had that power. When I started deleting off-topic anti-Jewish comments, some of the offended commenters complained to Ron, who then came down hard on me. <br /><br />The issue here is not simply Canadian jurisprudence (which considers the comments section to be an extension of my column). If I allow off-topic comments, especially long essay-style ones, people will rightly wonder why I`m not deleting them. And it`s no defence, either morally or legally, to say I don`t delete them because I don`t have the power to do so, since I freely consented to a situation where I wouldn`t have that power.Peter Frosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04303172060029254340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-48807365970495623322018-03-03T00:29:29.626-05:002018-03-03T00:29:29.626-05:00Hi, Peter,
I'm really happy to see you are bl...Hi, Peter, <br />I'm really happy to see you are blogging again. I just checked out "Evo" on a whim, and see I have a lot of reading to catch up on! I thought you had given up on blogging after some concern about legal changes in Canada and you lost your ability to moderate comments at Unz Review.<br />Maybe you could make an announcement there that you are blogging on your own again. I imagine there are others like me who enjoyed your blog and don't know you've restarted it.Wandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09112923932070896374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-39808964967526358812018-03-02T19:41:21.767-05:002018-03-02T19:41:21.767-05:00Of the three major populations in prehistoric Euro...<i>Of the three major populations in prehistoric Europe, they were the ones who would ultimately have the greatest demographic impact and lead the way to behavioral modernity, i.e., individualism, reduced emphasis on kinship, and the market as the main organizing principle of social and economic life. They not only survived but also went on to create what we call the Western World. Not bad for a bunch of losers.</i><br /><br />You seem to ignore completely the Bronze Age Indo-European invasions from the steppe. It's hard to believe that the Indo-Europeans had less of an impact in creating the West given the dominance and influence of IE language, culture, myth, religion, etc. Have you read Richardo Duchesne's The Uniqueness of Western Civilization? You also contend that the IEs did not effect much demographic replacement despite recent genetic data, don't you?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-60459917181385286312018-03-02T13:59:23.780-05:002018-03-02T13:59:23.780-05:00Luke,
No, I'm not implying that the evolution...Luke,<br /><br />No, I'm not implying that the evolution of outward physical characteristics is somehow linked to the evolution of inward mental predispositions. For one thing, the time periods are different. The modern European phenotype was probably fully developed by the end of the Upper Paleolithic (c. 10,000 years ago). The Northwest European mindset developed much later, in the late Mesolithic (between 8500 and 6,000 years ago). The geographical areas are also different. The former developed in northeastern Europe (and apparently, according to the latest ancient DNA evidence, as far east as mid-Siberia). The latter developed along the shores of the Baltic and the North Sea.<br /><br />For more info, read:<br /><br />Frost, P. (2017). The Hajnal line and gene-culture coevolution in northwest Europe, Advances in Anthropology, 7, 154-174.<br />http://file.scirp.org/pdf/AA_2017082915090955.pdf<br /><br />Sean,<br /><br />Old anthropological textbooks refer to an "Old Black Breed" that once inhabited the British Isles. It looks like there was a process of population replacement that began not long before the beginning of recorded history and extended into historic times.<br /><br />Anon,<br /><br />The first Europeans probably looked like scaled-up Khoisans. I wouldn't use the term 'negroid' because we're talking about an earlier phenotype that differed in some ways from what we now see in most of sub-Saharan Africa.<br /><br />We may be talking past each other. The aDNA from Kostenki (Markina Gora) reveals a person with very dark skin and dark eyes. Yes, he was European and related to present-day Europeans, but his phenotype was still largely African.Peter Frosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04303172060029254340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-70565102776537225912018-03-01T16:41:15.184-05:002018-03-01T16:41:15.184-05:00The Grimald race was a myth because the supposedly...The Grimald race was a myth because the supposedly Negroid skull was pathological.<br /><br />A dolichocephalic skull is plesiomorphic and widespread among the white race, and Anglo-Saxon and other Migration Age skulls may be unexpectedly prognathous for Europeans. It doesn't mean they were negroids.<br /><br />Populations within Europe might have changed but ever since the aDNA from Markhina Gora, and Zubova's re-evaluation of human remains from that site, it appears Europeans have been Homo sapiens europaeus since the EUP, directly replacing/intergrading with the neanderthals.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-16059363300402332382018-03-01T14:42:11.343-05:002018-03-01T14:42:11.343-05:00Well your original Ice Age theory would seem to be...Well your original Ice Age theory would seem to be correct as an explanation of where SLC24A5 SLC45A2 and TYRP1 ect came from, but whether these alleles took over Britain by an expansion of coastal population out of the Mesolithic coast (and earlier Doggerland) shellfish harvesting populations seems less certain. Only some of the Motola group had the full suite for light skin hair and eyes, and they all had the Edar allele that gives <a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2332785/Dangerous-double-jaw-surgery-rise-South-Korea-women-encouraged-face-risks-bone-cutting-procedure-beauty.html" rel="nofollow"> big jaws</a> and other aspects of Asian appearance, which is not found in Europeans today.<br /> <br />Sven's coloration would seem to indicate that the average hue of Britons in the Neolithic was noticeably darker than would be called typically indigenous English skin today. I have never understood how the mixing of farmers with hunter gathers and Indo Europeans could have produced north European type white skin light eyes and hair colour.<br /><b>"<a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5413607/Neolithic-farmers-wiped-Beaker-people.html" rel="nofollow">How the builders of Stonehenge 5,000 years ago were almost completely wiped out by mysterious 'Beaker people'</a>The genes of these ancient people provide enough clues to determine that Beakers travelled here from Holland and took over in a few centuries. They replaced 90 per cent of the Neolithic farmers. The creators of Stonehenge appeared Mediterranean, with olive-hued skin, dark hair and eyes. Professor Ian Barnes, a co-senior author of the study from the Natural History Museum, said: 'We found that the skeletal remains of individuals from Britain who lived shortly after the first Beaker pottery appears have a very different DNA profile to those who came before. [...] 'Over several hundred years, at least 90 per cent of the ancestry of ancient British populations was replaced by a group from the continent. Following the Beaker spread, there was a population in Britain that for the first time had ancestry and skin and eye pigmentation similar to the majority of Britons today.'."</b> Nature says the Bell Beakers "had lighter-coloured skin and eyes than the people they replaced." . From what I can gather these Bell Beakers continued coming to Britain for many centuries (one later Bell Beaker man found in England was found to have grown up in Switzerland) but they were a NOT fully white population. The original Bell Beaker invaders of Britain were <i>whiter</i> than farmers, but still rather swarthy by modern standards it seems. I think actual selection for white skin must have been operating quite powerfully in Britain after the Bell beakers arrived. What do you think of Indo European hierarchy and primogeniture as a factor? I am suggesting that the oldest son post Bell beaker invasion was in a position where, due to his having more resources he attract numerous women and could choose a wife whose first male child was inherit the same ability to choose a wife. Lighter skinned women being chosen by the heir and the higher reproductive success of the heir and his light- skinned wife over many generation could lighten skin of the whole population. I believe studies have found such selection in Britain down into modern times.Seannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-52701464462957178272018-02-27T22:43:03.515-05:002018-02-27T22:43:03.515-05:00Thanks for the tour! There towards the end, is th...Thanks for the tour! There towards the end, is that the new Aryan, I mean Nordic, hypothesis? The blond blue-eyed fishermen, Vikings, Normans, and all that? I'm not trying to be snarky, just curious.Luke Leahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11290760894780619646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-43772132532511729212018-02-27T17:28:56.906-05:002018-02-27T17:28:56.906-05:00I would argue that the SHGs and the EHGs were the ...I would argue that the SHGs and the EHGs were the same population, at least until the late Mesolithic (by which time the people along the Baltic and North Sea coasts had become semi-sedentary with large populations).<br /><br />The Yamna expansion took place later in time, in the final Neolithic, and probably corresponds to the spread of Indo-European languages across Europe. As with the Anatolian farmers, there is a tendency to over-estimate the degree of population replacement, and for the same reasons. I also feel that the contribution of Caucasus hunter-gatherers to the Yamna culture has been exaggerated, but I could be wrong.Peter Frosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04303172060029254340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-85465478708683165332018-02-26T22:34:14.815-05:002018-02-26T22:34:14.815-05:00Forgot to add, this site here https://genetiker.wo...Forgot to add, this site here https://genetiker.wordpress.com/<br />Has huge databases of Admixture, yDNA and Phenotype SNPs directly from the papers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-7471849975583229162018-02-26T22:32:58.212-05:002018-02-26T22:32:58.212-05:00Peter, you forgot about the Scandinavian Hunter Ga...Peter, you forgot about the Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers (a mix of WHG and EHG) and the Caucasus Hunter Gatherers.<br />You didn't touch in the point of the Yamnaya/Corded Ware/IE expansions either, idk why.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com