tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post8529658295824322524..comments2024-03-22T15:55:34.030-04:00Comments on Evo and Proud: Getting the babes but not the babiesPeter Frosthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04303172060029254340noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-74876813106437240992015-05-05T19:02:03.150-04:002015-05-05T19:02:03.150-04:00This is all very interesting, but one statistic I ...This is all very interesting, but one statistic I didn't see was the actual reproductive success of the bad boy against the good boy. It is all very well to seduce a virgin and leave it to a kind adoptive couple to raise the offspring. But how many virgins do you have to seduce (and how easy was it?) before you produced the same number of children you would have got by concentrating on finding a wife and raising the children in "good boy" fashion? And let's not forget that reproductive success does not mean just producing lots of children, but also lots of grandchildren. Your offspring have to live to reproduce as well.Malcolm Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00672612354161787023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-6043559629920229892014-12-20T11:54:56.767-05:002014-12-20T11:54:56.767-05:00Fact is that modern evangelical Christianity has s...Fact is that modern evangelical Christianity has started growing faster then anything, including Atheism and Islam. Those churches often contain a courtship culture very similar to 100 years ago, where, though sex before marriage does happen, it is at least a taboo (and scandalous if it happens in leadership). I suspect within that culture is what will save us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-28674746599690773672014-08-28T07:18:29.067-04:002014-08-28T07:18:29.067-04:00If I get time, I'll endeavour to fully underst...If I get time, I'll endeavour to fully understand Sir Tyrion's comments; they're quite difficult to understand just by skim-reading. <br /><br />And I'm not sure if Sean is arguing, as I think Bruce also has argued, that heritability must not be seen as applying at the individual level, or not.<br /><br />It occurs to me that with the latest news about grooming-gangs in the UK, both Chick and JT have addressed a post to this, that Peter might want to use this gruesome crime as a discussion point for considering female selection for Alpha male traits, (and/or proxies for Alpha male traits), and/or selection for bad-boy traits. ?<br /><br />Going a step further (into the deep gene pool), is there an ethnic connection that might have made the gruesome business model more difficult for East Asians and/or West Indians to implement? Are South Asian men perhaps attractive to European women? Or was the faux romance, and/or the fear, and/or the resulting cognitive dissonance sufficient for any ethnic group to co-opt any other 'spare' women?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-76711646675593716542014-08-23T11:30:13.598-04:002014-08-23T11:30:13.598-04:00"And what evidence is there that ‘dominance’ ..."And what evidence is there that ‘dominance’ is the determinant of female sexual choice"<br /><br />There is a very extensive literature on this subject. A good entry point would be:<br /><br />Buss, D.M. (1989). Sex differences in human mate preferences: Evolutionary hypotheses tested in 37 cultures, <br />Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 12, 1-14.<br /><br />The importance of social dominance varies from one woman to another, but very few would argue that it isn't a mate-choice criterion.<br /><br />"let's choose one nerd skinny ( or even nice average joe). Then, let's imagine we could magically transform him such that he could capture the attention of most of cute women around him."<br /><br />You would have to change not only his appearance but his behavior as well. <br /><br />Peter Fros_noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-20723568953290882982014-08-23T11:07:47.591-04:002014-08-23T11:07:47.591-04:00,"By "bad boy" I mean the following...<i>,"By "bad boy" I mean the following mental and behavioral traits:<br /><br />- little desire to care for one’s offspring, i.e., low level of paternal investment<br />- strong tendency to love and leave women, i.e., weak pair bonding<br />- poor impulse control<br />- tendency to live in the present, i.e., weak future time orientation<br />- reluctance to endure short-term pain for long-term gain<br />- low anger thresholds, i.e., tendency to express anger for trivial reasons<br />- “Big Man” characteristics, i.e., bombastic speech, ostentatious mannerisms and behavior, strong desire for “respect” from others, etc.<br /><br />Most of the above traits have been shown to be moderately heritable and some have high heritability"</i><br /><br />The truth is that physical attractiveness is the limiting factor of male reproductive strategy. I could explain why differences in male physical attractiveness should lead to differences in strategy.<br /><br />First, attractiveness functions as a constraint. The idea may be reconciled with those of Trivers and others in that the overall optimum still tends toward a higher proportion of short-term tactics for attractive males. The point is just that less attractive males’ possibilities are constrained to make more long-term mating optimal and more parental investment.<br /><br />So according you say nice guy/bad boy traits are moderately heritable and some have high heritability, and there would be no conditional strategy.Ok, let's choose one nerd skinny ( or even nice average joe). Then, let's imagine we could magically transform him such that he could capture the attention of most of cute women around him. Therefore, in a few days, after the transformation, he would find that plenty of gorgeous girls would swoon him, wherever he goes. Which mating/reproductive strategy would this individual adopt? Short term or long term mating? Parental investment and mating effort? We bet if you want!<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-51037269290716041492014-08-23T05:10:18.534-04:002014-08-23T05:10:18.534-04:00Actually I take that back. Men in the GSS from 199...Actually I take that back. Men in the GSS from 1991-1993 averaged 1.73 children. Men in the prison population from this time period averaged 2.0 children. So including this population might actually skew the numbers the other way.<br /><br />I wish there was more research about this.<br /><br />U.S.D.J. (1993) Survey of state prison inmates. Washington, DC: B.J.S.Jason Malloyhttp://humanvarieties.org/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-66531555583774152142014-08-23T04:59:40.792-04:002014-08-23T04:59:40.792-04:00This survey data also does not include the dead an...This survey data also does not include the dead and the incarcerated. The violent and the impulsive are disproportionately culled from the population at young ages. Many as teenagers before they have any children. If the GSS asked about the respondent's <i>father's</i> fertility and criminal record, the numbers should tilt even more toward the law-abiding.<br /><br />The logic is similar for prison. Criminals spend many prime reproductive years locked away from mating opportunities.<br /><br />Granted prison surveys from the early 90s found inmates averaged two children, which is about the same as the general population. So it could be a wash.Jason Malloyhttp://humanvarieties.org/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-22143685056945566692014-08-23T02:08:45.157-04:002014-08-23T02:08:45.157-04:00RE: criminal fertility. The General Social Survey ...RE: criminal fertility. The General Social Survey asks "Were you ever picked up, or charged, by the police"<br /><br />Mean number of children (males)<br />YES 1.66 (N=1,149)<br />NO 1.94 (N=4,504)<br /><br />"Have you ever spent any time in prison or jail"<br /><br />YES 1.66 (N=173)<br />NO 1.68 (N=649)Jason Malloyhttp://humanvarieties.org/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-67614646188322935392014-08-22T12:10:59.146-04:002014-08-22T12:10:59.146-04:00JayMan,
I can't help citing your posts. You w...JayMan,<br /><br />I can't help citing your posts. You write good scholarly stuff.<br /><br />I agree that survey data suffer from self-report bias, but the same trend shows up in harder data, like statistics on fertility. In Western societies, fertility rates are converging on the same level of 1.5 to 2.0 children per woman. The only exception seems to be certain religious minorities who make a conscious effort to insulate themselves from modern culture.<br /><br />Sir Tyrion,<br /><br />By "bad boy" I mean the following mental and behavioral traits:<br /><br />- little desire to care for one’s offspring, i.e., low level of paternal investment<br /> - strong tendency to love and leave women, i.e., weak pair bonding<br /> - poor impulse control<br /> - tendency to live in the present, i.e., weak future time orientation<br /> - reluctance to endure short-term pain for long-term gain<br /> - low anger thresholds, i.e., tendency to express anger for trivial reasons<br /> - “Big Man” characteristics, i.e., bombastic speech, ostentatious mannerisms and behavior, strong desire for “respect” from others, etc.<br /><br />Most of the above traits have been shown to be moderately heritable and some have high heritability.<br /><br />Women respond to certain visual and/or behavioral cues that indicate social dominance. There is some variability among women in this respect, and I suspect that recent human evolution has tended to reduce this aspect of female sexual response.<br /><br />Anon,<br /><br />Yes, I know about B&B. I seem to be getting a lot of extreme people who want to convert me to their way of thinking.<br /><br />Anon and Sean,<br /><br />I suspect Lynn's British data suffers from the same problem as the Swedish data, i.e., he's not controlling for ethnic and cultural differences.Peter Fros_noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-48259316092165730312014-08-22T07:48:36.885-04:002014-08-22T07:48:36.885-04:00Lynn: "A sample of 104 British parents with c...Lynn: "A sample of 104 British parents with criminal convictions had an average fertility of 3·91 children as compared with 2·21 for the general population. The result suggests that fertility for criminal behaviour is dysgenic involving an increase in the genes underlying criminal behaviour in the population"Seannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-88991954617035929362014-08-21T14:55:12.090-04:002014-08-21T14:55:12.090-04:00'By the way, Richard Lynn's book "Dys...'By the way, Richard Lynn's book "Dysgenics" has actual data on this issue across different societies.'<br /><br />Lynn has been exposed as manipulating data has he not?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-47890132528530034822014-08-21T14:53:53.990-04:002014-08-21T14:53:53.990-04:00interesting postinteresting postAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-12046998505484006392014-08-21T09:43:41.056-04:002014-08-21T09:43:41.056-04:00Jason Molloy - Are the Mormons and Amish going to ...Jason Molloy - Are the Mormons and Amish going to inherit the Earth or at least the US?Jimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-52292302889805581452014-08-19T11:44:20.094-04:002014-08-19T11:44:20.094-04:00
It’s not well known the ontogeny of male strateg...<br /><br />It’s not well known the ontogeny of male strategic differences. But the more plausible alternative for me is that males continuously and unconsciously monitor their ability to succeed in a high mating effort strategy. If so, then we would expect men’s psychology and behavior to track relevant changes. The likelihood of strategic heritable variation is controversial; however, because recombination prevents fortuitous combinations of genes from persisting long enough for polygenic morphs to evolve.A two-strategy system with a binary genetic switch can evolve more easily.<br /><br />So I think that, when we observe that females privilege such bad boys/cads, it is not that females find these traits attractive per se, but rather that they are selecting for certain desirable traits that have become correlated with negative ones – this is their dilemma. <br /><br />Conditional strategies have five main properties (see<br />Gross 1996):<br /><br />(a) They involve different behavioral tactics that are consciously or unconsciously “chosen” by an individual;<br /><br />(b) the choices between tactics are “made” in response<br />to specific features or cues in the environment, often an individual’s attractiveness or status relative to other individuals; <br /><br />(c) all individuals are genetically monomorphic (i.e., they are are genetically designed to enact the same tactics);<br /><br />(d) during their evolution, the average adaptive values<br />of different tactics were not equal except at a “switchpoint”<br />on a continuum of environmental input (e.g., individuals’<br />relative attractiveness) where the costs and benefits of each tactic balanced out; and <br /><br />(e) during their evolution, the chosen tactic tended to yield higher fitness for the individual than other tactics given current environmental conditions. Thus, the environmental conditions moderate the fitness gains of pursuing different tactics (e.g., exerting parental effort, pursuing short-term matings), thereby affecting the optimal allocation of effort to different tactics.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-82494771400366073922014-08-19T11:41:41.413-04:002014-08-19T11:41:41.413-04:00First, we should define what means "bad boy&...First, we should define what means "bad boy", are we talking about dark triad traits?<br /><br />I agree with Jayman, I do not believe that surveys are a reliable indication of mating distributions:<br /><br />1) Methodological problems with survey research on number/quality of sexual partners.<br /><br />2) Correlation, causation and using men’s reports to judge women’s preferences and male mating success.<br /><br />To even begin to argue that there was an inheritable ‘dark triad’ that was good for reproducing, at the very least, we’d have to demonstrate that the ‘dark triad’ was inherited, using such things as twin studies or adoption studies <br /><br />In the Human Genome Project Information website’s page on ‘behavioural genetics,’ none of the ‘dark triad’ show up as the subject of extensive genetic studies. If we’re going to argue about female mating skew, I think we would need to test field research or online dating stats, and not just the dumb "self report data" — we’d have to actually study mating behaviour, who people are really sleeping with.<br /><br />If the ‘dark triad’ can’t be transmitted or is not inherent, you still have the issue about women liking ‘bad boys,’ but now you have a whole different dynamic to explain. To me, that question looks a hell of a lot more like a sociological one than an evolutionary one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-40161840776703198242014-08-19T03:30:16.337-04:002014-08-19T03:30:16.337-04:00Frost: We have to work with the available data. In...Frost: <i>We have to work with the available data. In Western societies, men with several female partners tend to have problems with sexual commitment and paternal investment.<br /><br />The problem with data on single parents is that the biological father is often present. The mother and the father have not officialised their relationship, but they are nonetheless monogamous. </i><br /><br />I'd like to see any data that men with several female partners before settling down to marriage tend to support their children less.<br /><br />They may do, but as a response of having options (not being losers) and thus being more liable to divorce and remarriage.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-23328826230100574252014-08-18T23:41:40.713-04:002014-08-18T23:41:40.713-04:00Thanks for the reference. :)
Unfortunately, as I ...Thanks for the reference. :)<br /><br />Unfortunately, as I admitted in my post, a key weakness is that self-reported sexual data is know to be considerably unreliable. So there's no way to know for sure if the "dads" are in fact outbreeding the "cads."JayManhttp://jaymans.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-80190289807211394602014-08-18T18:36:41.462-04:002014-08-18T18:36:41.462-04:00Having bad boys being adopted by nice dads sounds ...Having bad boys being adopted by nice dads sounds cuckoo.Jurijhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02629194072843135992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-44718825810312040452014-08-17T22:58:32.400-04:002014-08-17T22:58:32.400-04:00"There's simply no getting around the fac..."There's simply no getting around the fact that the ghetto thug who has sex with as many women as possible is the most evolutionary fit individual in the current environment."<br /><br />This is not a "fact" but a wild assertion. The GSS does not show hyper-fertility for the most promiscuous black men, and it's not difficult to find much larger sub-populations with higher fertility (e.g. fundamentalist white men, high income white men, monogamous Mexican men). And the GSS doesn't even include data for groups like the Amish and Hasidim that are in a whole different weight division.Jason Malloyhttp://humanvarieties.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-89602290412355151662014-08-17T20:36:34.846-04:002014-08-17T20:36:34.846-04:00Those who point out the higher fertility among les...Those who point out the higher fertility among less intelligent women should see info showing the reverse emerging among men<br /><br />http://jaymans.wordpress.com/2014/07/28/idiocracy-can-wait/acronymnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-55992117003409031152014-08-17T16:25:02.600-04:002014-08-17T16:25:02.600-04:00Hepp,
The data I've seen is that low SES and ...Hepp,<br /><br />The data I've seen is that low SES and high SES groups are converging toward the same fertility rate in most Western societies. This is a somewhat different issue than the one raised in my post (bad boys vs. good boys).<br /><br />Anon,<br /><br />Artificial wombs are science fiction. Why not talk about what can be done now?<br /><br />Jason,<br /><br />What we need now is "secular fundamentalism", i.e., secular-minded people who are pro-family and pro-fertility.<br /><br />Anon,<br /><br />We have to work with the available data. In Western societies, men with several female partners tend to have problems with sexual commitment and paternal investment.<br /><br />The problem with data on single parents is that the biological father is often present. The mother and the father have not officialised their relationship, but they are nonetheless monogamous. <br /><br />Peter Fros_noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-79803801386982927802014-08-17T11:30:01.364-04:002014-08-17T11:30:01.364-04:00Generally, fertility between high and low IQ peopl...Generally, fertility between high and low IQ people seems to converge across the 20th century - <br /><br />in the GSS, people with low Wordsum report having more brothers and sisters when born at the start of the 20th century. <br /><br />That's decreasingly true, as low Wordsum people have gone through more of a fertility reduction (the demographic transition happens earlier for the smart, net of religious subcultures that are obsessed with filling the earth with children).<br /><br />Fertility differences were all a lot more noticeable in Galton's era.<br /><br />Still, it will take a long time to converge at current rates.<br /><br />Re: Silent Generation men having the promiscuous as the top breeders, OK, but -<br /><br />Single motherhood goes like this<br /><br />http://www.heritage.org/~/media/images/reports/2012/09/sr117/chart2.ashx?w=600&h=718&as=1<br /><br />I don't see guys who have had several female partners, then marry one and have several children with them, remaining married and not really divorcing, as "bad boys". That makes little sense. Guys who are successful enough to be able to pick and choose women before having lots of kids with one, then remain monogamously married with her, are surely exactly "good boys". Having a little bit of romantic variety doesn't make you a bad person.<br /><br />Number of children by number of divorces and marriages (ideally one marriage, zero divorces) and number of "baby mamas" is the variable we would be interested in here (although really, propensity and ability to financially support children is the *only* real variable of interest, whether it is with lots of women or only one).<br /><br /><i>If we project from current fertility trends then the future looks more like religious fundamentalism than ghetto dysfunction (i.e. low intelligence/high self-restraint/high female domesticity).</i><br /><br />But then we wonder what will happen when the money runs out (intelligence being what makes the money).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-78169585508217799672014-08-17T10:57:09.634-04:002014-08-17T10:57:09.634-04:00Actual data on education completion rate and numbe...Actual data on education completion rate and number of children for women:<br /><br />http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/02/lets-not-panic-over-women-with-more-education-having-fewer-kids/273070/2/<br /><br />Women without high school diplomas have a TFR of 2.6, compared to less than 2.0 for every other education cohort. One thing that the author doesn't mention is that generation times are shorter for the low IQ, exacerbating the differences in TFR. <br /><br />We're getting dumber, there's no getting around it. Heppnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-64597624371212862672014-08-17T10:51:11.137-04:002014-08-17T10:51:11.137-04:00"No, Dysgenics does not report any data for t..."No, Dysgenics does not report any data for the reproductive success of monogamous and promiscuous people (or criminals for that matter). The General Social Survey shows that monogamous people have more children.<br /><br />Populations need not conform to Rushton's "r vs. K" typologies. If we project from current fertility trends then the future looks more like religious fundamentalism than ghetto dysfunction (i.e. low intelligence/high self-restraint/high female domesticity)."<br /><br />The future will be both. There's simply no getting around the fact that the ghetto thug who has sex with as many women as possible is the most evolutionary fit individual in the current environment. Heppnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-13563545158982648502014-08-17T06:23:20.719-04:002014-08-17T06:23:20.719-04:00By the way, Richard Lynn's book "Dysgenic...<i>By the way, Richard Lynn's book "Dysgenics" has actual data on this issue across different societies.<br /></i><br /><br />No, Dysgenics does not report any data for the reproductive success of monogamous and promiscuous people (or criminals for that matter). The General Social Survey shows that monogamous people have more children.<br /><br />Populations need not conform to Rushton's "r vs. K" typologies. If we project from current fertility trends then the future looks more like religious fundamentalism than ghetto dysfunction (i.e. low intelligence/high self-restraint/high female domesticity).Jason Malloyhttp://humanvarieties.org/noreply@blogger.com