tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post1562920408020225913..comments2024-03-22T15:55:34.030-04:00Comments on Evo and Proud: More on European hunter-gatherersPeter Frosthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04303172060029254340noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-35599129980886677602010-09-29T00:10:20.800-04:002010-09-29T00:10:20.800-04:00Don't forget about fishing. A lot of the &quo...Don't forget about fishing. A lot of the "hunting" done was actually fishing.<br /><br />A great book entitled NUTRITION AND PHYSICAL DEGENERATION shows how human populations thrive under 'primitive' foods as eaten by hunter-gatherers-fishers yet often flounder when eating modern processed foods provided by agriculture - http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/price/pricetoc.html<br /><br />Throughout the book the author compares the primitive groups to after they had become modernized and tracks the resulting loss of health and vitality.Pseudothyrumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-54780667808864510752010-08-19T18:08:25.143-04:002010-08-19T18:08:25.143-04:00Matt,
The Northwest hunter-gatherers show that fa...Matt,<br /><br />The Northwest hunter-gatherers show that farming is not the only path to complex human societies. Once you have enough food to store and a sufficiently dense population, the conditions are in place for a lot of phenomena we associate with agrarian societies.<br /><br />The difference of course is that advanced fishing societies are more geographically limited.<br /><br />Tod,<br /><br />Partial estrogenization was probably the pathway for increased paternal investment and male food provisioning. But the idea was originally Ed Miller's.<br /><br />Ben,<br /><br />Farming implies a number of key points: food storage, sedentary living at least part of the year, and tending and protection of the food source.<br /><br />VG, Urogallus<br /><br />I google for that image (using 'ice cellar' as the key words). There's not much information on the web page where I found it. But the ice cellar looks medieval in origin.<br /><br />Anon,<br /><br />See my earlier post at:<br /> <br />http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2010/05/out-of-north-eurasia.htmlPeter Frostnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-20043729254540941732010-08-19T14:58:09.562-04:002010-08-19T14:58:09.562-04:00"the southern people (Egyptians, Babylonians,...<i>"the southern people (Egyptians, Babylonians, Hittites ans Persians) lived like savages"</i><br /><br />What Frost is saying doesn't speak to the "southern people" being less intelligent than the contemporous "northern people". While I'd best let him speak for himself rather than put words into his mouth, the overall drift of his theory (if you read anything at all of his Rome contra barbarians stuff for instance) seems supportive of the idea that contemporous "northern people" may well have had lower IQ than "southern people". <br /><br />The point that is being made is that Northern foragers generally had a more technologically complex societies than Southern ones, with likely higher time preferences and that, as both of these would in theory make it easier to adapt to agriculture, it might be that you would see a lot more continuity between Mesolithic foragers and the following farming populations than you would expect from analysis of Southern foragers and similar demographic expansions in more southerly zones.<br /><br />Of course, against this I would assume is the opposing effect of Northern populations being smaller (and thus likely to have less disease resistance) and of being highly hunt and fish dependant (and so possibly reacting less well to the prospect of a diet that resembled "gathered" diets).Mattnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-14636861098706295722010-08-19T12:46:53.427-04:002010-08-19T12:46:53.427-04:00“Technological complexity in colder environments s...“Technological complexity in colder environments seems to reflect the need for greater foraging efficiency in settings where many resources are available only for limited periods of time.”<br /><br />That is why complex agrarian civilizations developed in Siberia, Northern Scandinavia and Groenland while the southern people (Egyptians, Babylonians, Hittites ans Persians) lived like savages. If I understand well, when northern people are successful this is because they are inherently smart; when southern people are successful this is thanks to the climate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-25044906953237286642010-08-16T12:53:32.719-04:002010-08-16T12:53:32.719-04:00Well...
I am not an expert of prehistoric archite...Well...<br /><br />I am not an expert of prehistoric architecture, but that 'ancient ice cellar' looks more like 17th-19th century CE cellar than something prehistoric. I have seen similar cellars in Värmland, near the border between Sweden and Norway. And as far as I know, meat was storaged dried or smoked, not on ice. And I also strongly suspect that cellars could survive for thousands of years. Roots of the trees and frost destroy cellars in centuries or even in decades. <br /><br />Very interesting blog, btw.urogallusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-43923912222182706382010-08-16T11:29:48.215-04:002010-08-16T11:29:48.215-04:00My grandfather was a farmer, living mostly on cows...My grandfather was a farmer, living mostly on cows for the milk. He had cows, pigs, chickens and ducks, rabits, very little crops beside some potatoes. If you can feed the animals who feed you, you're good. That means hay for winter, mostly. People say that wheat and related crops are the most energy-efficient source of protein, but they forget to mention that cows spend a lot of their energy grazing. They feed themselves. This energy should be taken into account in the balance for protein production because somebody has to spend it. A farmer who has only crops will have to spend this energy himself: sort the seeds, fertilize and prepare the soil for seeding, harvesting, it's a lot of work. <br />All I remember with cows is that you have to work hard for the hay in summer, that's it. Cows fertilize themselves the pasture. You move them to the next pasture then back to the first, and everyday you get their milk. It's really not much work, perfect for kids. Most cattle herders farmers have plenty of time to go hunting/fishing and put extra meat on the table.Ben10noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-53644067909826967962010-08-16T11:03:00.840-04:002010-08-16T11:03:00.840-04:00What's also striking about that picture is tha...What's also striking about that picture is that it looks like a perfect arch, well before the Romans developed it.VGnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-39099006986007701352010-08-15T15:57:46.841-04:002010-08-15T15:57:46.841-04:00Very interesting. Maybe you should precise what yo...Very interesting. Maybe you should precise what you mean by 'farming'.<br /><br />Catle herders might have been partially sedentarized if the weither in postglacial europe allowed grass to come back quickly in the pasture, and completely sedentarized if farmers could get enough hay for winter. With hay, you get milk and fresh meat at home, without it you still need to move your herd in winter which is not much better than a hunter.Ben10noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-71082433419566549522010-08-15T11:18:35.721-04:002010-08-15T11:18:35.721-04:00Interesting as always. While I'm sure that thi...Interesting as always. While I'm sure that this post gives a very big part of the explanation John Manning's ideas on the effect of oestrogenisation may also be relevant.Todnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-74227215176864846352010-08-14T06:04:08.497-04:002010-08-14T06:04:08.497-04:00I believe there is a higher degree of sedentism an...I believe there is a higher degree of sedentism and accumulation among Pacific Northwestern hunter gatherers compared to other hunter gatherers across the world. <br /><br />Europe is relatively ecologically similar to the Pacific Northwest (similar maritime climates), so I've wondered whether there was any degree of parallel amongst pre-Neolithic populations there, and whether this would affect their ability to adapt to farming. <br /><br />I am not aware of any evidence of the above though. There are some findings of "Mesolithic houses" in Northwestern Europe (at least in the British Isles) that I am aware of, but the relatively frequency of this phenomenon is world terms and the era is something I am not sure about.Mattnoreply@blogger.com