tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post1588012388375900776..comments2024-03-22T15:55:34.030-04:00Comments on Evo and Proud: How universal is empathy?Peter Frosthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04303172060029254340noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-43370125914602201342021-11-17T02:38:26.410-05:002021-11-17T02:38:26.410-05:00In the big fat lie to use guilt binIn the big fat lie to use guilt binchristywellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04548086188658779586noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-3785173025697657352019-09-26T03:32:57.194-04:002019-09-26T03:32:57.194-04:00Very good & much great. You are successful bec...Very good & much great. You are successful because you share all the Knowledge you know with others. <br /><b><a href="https://blog.mindvalley.com/too-much-empathy/" rel="nofollow">https://blog.mindvalley.com/too-much-empathy/</a></b>Mindvalleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07258228697025638864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-13328449680287523512014-09-30T02:53:08.598-04:002014-09-30T02:53:08.598-04:00This is interesting. Depressive and self-destructi...This is interesting. Depressive and self-destructive people are kinder and more empathic than non-depressive ones. I think they're really common not only on NW Europe, but I think also in NE Asia. Usually, when scandals are involved, NE Asians usually resign and commit suicide, like the cases of Japanese politicians. They easily become depressed. Unlike the rest of Asians, where they become melodramatic, and sometimes bash or even kill their opponents, like the case of Filipino politicians. Sadly, only NE Asians and NW Europeans are more empathic, while the rest of the world are not. <br />Also, I find people with high affective empathy are babyface and more attractive, that's why I find NE Asians and NW Europeans very attractive more than the rest of the humans. (Disclaimer: I apologize if I sound racist.)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18027321182388475513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-48529167059658140282014-07-05T00:53:44.341-04:002014-07-05T00:53:44.341-04:00Those “things” fit very nicely. Empathy does not m...<i>Those “things” fit very nicely. Empathy does not mean unconditional love for everybody. If a person is perceived to be morally worthless (i.e., a free rider or a “rule breaker”), that person will be expelled from the group or even killed. This is something that empathic people enjoy doing. “Altruistic punishers experience a neuronally based reward from punishing defectors, despite material costs.”</i><br /><br />Yes, empathy doesn't mean unconditional love for everybody. But those "things" aren't examples of empathy towards in-group members or policing of in-group members by altruistic punishment, but of empathy not being extended towards out-groups.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-55768373636864592552014-07-04T21:22:31.038-04:002014-07-04T21:22:31.038-04:00Those “things” fit very nicely. Empathy does not m...<i>Those “things” fit very nicely. Empathy does not mean unconditional love for everybody. If a person is perceived to be morally worthless (i.e., a free rider or a “rule breaker”), that person will be expelled from the group or even killed. This is something that empathic people enjoy doing. “Altruistic punishers experience a neuronally based reward from punishing defectors, despite material costs.” In the past, foreigners were routinely considered to be moral outsiders. They could not be full members of the moral community because they would pursue their own interests at the expense of everyone else’s.<br /><br />Over the past century, we have seen a dramatic reversal of this rule that foreigners are moral outsiders. The rule itself has been deemed immoral, and people who support it are deemed to be moral outsiders.</i><br /><br />I don't necessarily disagree with everything here. <br /><br />However, ultimately it's not that foreigners would pursue their own interests that they weren't part of the moral community. Foreigners weren't part of the moral community because it was recognized that simply by being genetically foreign, they had fundamentally different interests, regardless of whether or not they would pursue them. Empathy was reserved for the in-group, and not universalized to out-groups.<br /><br />We have not actually seen a dramatic reversal of this rule that foreigners are moral outsiders. What we have actually seen over the past century is people being indoctrinated to believe that foreigners effectively don't exist in the first place. People have been indoctrinated to believe that race, ethnicity, etc. don't exist and are merely social constructs, that 2 people of the same race are more genetically different than 2 people of different races, etc. Since there are no foreigners, there are no moral outsiders. People don't actually believe that foreigners aren't moral outsiders. What they've been led to believe is that they aren't really foreign, hence aren't moral outsiders. When formerly liberal whites who had been convinced by "science" that foreigners didn't really genetically exist read HBD or racialist literature and discover that genetic foreigners do indeed exist, they tend to revert to the older way of recognizing genetic foreigners, hence recognizing them as out-groups and thus as moral outsiders.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-7131318598287822502014-07-04T14:33:22.811-04:002014-07-04T14:33:22.811-04:00slave trade
Arabs of the Levant have around about...<i>slave trade</i><br /><br />Arabs of the Levant have around about 6-7% African admixture.<br /><br />That would, alone, drop "IQ" about 6-7% of one standard deviation, which in IQ terms would be 6/100*15 = 0.9 IQ points. Or if you reckon the gap with Africans is around 20 points, 1.2 points.<br /><br />Pretty trivial compared to a small amount of natural selection.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-39495550109967540242014-07-04T08:22:12.147-04:002014-07-04T08:22:12.147-04:00"How is it possible that they [Arabs] created..."How is it possible that they [Arabs] created and maintained such a high level of culture during the so-called Dark Ages?"<br /><br />They invaded rich lands with very high level of culture - that gave them very good start. It's not like they invented everything and created something from nothing. That then they were invaded from two sides, which created a cultural backslash, could be considered a factor.<br /><br />szopenohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12096688483881484656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-6477039276542089102014-07-04T00:09:51.807-04:002014-07-04T00:09:51.807-04:00Anonymous,
No, it makes empathy an invalid constru...Anonymous,<br />No, it makes empathy an invalid construct. The usage of the word 'empathy' ought to be either restricted to emotional empathy or else abandoned.B&Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-79441055798928010492014-07-03T21:17:58.142-04:002014-07-03T21:17:58.142-04:00"The castrated their black slaves so I doubt ..."The castrated their black slaves so I doubt it."<br /><br />The Arab slave trade in Africa was mostly young boys and *women*.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-28088865497261947792014-07-03T15:24:03.745-04:002014-07-03T15:24:03.745-04:00*They*TheyJuoninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-58747858802819427662014-07-03T15:23:11.151-04:002014-07-03T15:23:11.151-04:00"Is it possible (or even likely) that their I...<i>"Is it possible (or even likely) that their IQ has declined since? If so, what would be the cause?"<br /><br />slave trade</i><br /><br /><br />The castrated their black slaves so I doubt it. <br />Juoninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-35396482763383737022014-07-03T11:14:32.858-04:002014-07-03T11:14:32.858-04:00"- affective or emotional empathy, i.e., capa..."- affective or emotional empathy, i.e., capacity to respond with the appropriate emotion to another person's mental state (Chakrabarti and Baron-Cohen, 2013)"<br /><br />In psychotherapy a distinction is often drawn between empathy and sympathy. <br /><br />Empathy is used to mean actually feeling the same emotions that the other is feeling, so if they are sad you are sad, if they are angry you are angry, if they are in pain then you feel the same pain. It's perhaps something like resonating together.<br /><br />Sympathy is used more to refer to a particular range of your own feelings in response to what the other is feeling, thus I might feel sad that you are angry again, or I might feel worried about you.<br /><br />Sympathy without evident empathy can be experienced as condescension, and it does not convey the same sort of emotional connection.Christianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13430066513415953779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-26031924242958532232014-07-03T09:11:32.219-04:002014-07-03T09:11:32.219-04:00"Is it possible (or even likely) that their I..."Is it possible (or even likely) that their IQ has declined since? If so, what would be the cause?"<br /><br />slave tradeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-57439766445175004902014-07-01T20:21:57.676-04:002014-07-01T20:21:57.676-04:00Nothing to do with this topic but:
As fas as I...Nothing to do with this topic but:<br /><br />As fas as I'm concerned the average IQ of Arabs nowadays is somewhere around 90. How is it possible that they created and maintained such a high level of culture during the so-called Dark Ages?<br /><br />Is it possible (or even likely) that their IQ has declined since? If so, what would be the cause?Juoninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-64772942353303412272014-07-01T12:13:08.177-04:002014-07-01T12:13:08.177-04:00B&B said "Nothing connects the different ...B&B said "Nothing connects the different kinds of empathy to the exclusion of any other part of the human 'social brain's' "<br /><br />Does that make empathy an emergent property?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-61709685806311933672014-07-01T11:44:00.093-04:002014-07-01T11:44:00.093-04:00Nothing connects the different kinds of empathy to...Nothing connects the different kinds of empathy to the exclusion of any other part of the human 'social brain's' workings during socialisation.<br /><br />The construct of empathy ought to be scrapped as unsupportable.B&Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-85008646784994773772014-07-01T10:11:36.974-04:002014-07-01T10:11:36.974-04:00No, Northwest Europeans are largely descended from...<b>No, Northwest Europeans are largely descended from Mesolithic hunter-fisher-gatherers. The decline of haplogroup U was due to selection and not population replacement.</b><br /><br />Well, I think Cochran thinks differently.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-24645087453297784392014-07-01T09:59:50.237-04:002014-07-01T09:59:50.237-04:00"No, Northwest Europeans are largely descende..."No, Northwest Europeans are largely descended from Mesolithic hunter-fisher-gatherers. The decline of haplogroup U was due to selection and not population replacement."<br /><br />Well, partially yes. As those people weren't entirely killed off. But hapblogroup ratios, ancient DNA analysis and archaeology tells us this is not true. Also ancient europeans were terrible and savage to each other as bronze-age death pits and roman and greek testimony reveal to us. <br /><br />Obviously the decrease of social friction is much more recent, within the past 2,000 years. <br /><br />Ancient europeans were just as savage and cruel as other humans. spagetiMeatballhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01324633097628826684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-55465924451882385902014-07-01T04:13:05.511-04:002014-07-01T04:13:05.511-04:00Peter, I was watching Wimbledon yesterday and I wa...Peter, I was watching Wimbledon yesterday and I was surprised to see that the crowd was overwhelmingly fair or brown/red haired. I don't think I've seen those sort of people en masse since before I discovered your work. And it struck me what an effective signalling system it is, and how, it relies on being many in number, for that effectiveness.<br /><br />I wondered whether, despite the time factor, the secondary-sex signalling system was the first step on the way to empathy. In gene-culture evolution many traits evolve concurrently. Traits and their 'tectonics' are not necessarily directly inter-connected but surely each trait outcome has the potential to impact on other trait evolution?<br /><br />Could the secondary-sex signalling system be the first step towards being able to identify other people by something other than clan membership? Could multi-variate hair and eye colour be a first step on the road to individualism? <br /><br />KateAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-47827484458499274042014-06-30T18:35:40.567-04:002014-06-30T18:35:40.567-04:00Whyvert,
I’ll touch on blushing in my next post (...Whyvert,<br /><br />I’ll touch on blushing in my next post (in relation to shame).<br /><br />Juoni,<br /><br />Guilt seems to be more important west of the Hajnal line. It’s probably best to think of Northwest European guilt culture as a clinal trait that diminishes progressively as one goes south and east.<br /><br />Luke,<br /><br />The desire for moral approbation is the flip side of shame, i.e., it’s mediated by what others think. Adam Smith understood that the free market economy required a high-trust environment where people respect each other and sympathize with each other. What he calls sympathy seems to correspond to empathy in modern English, i.e., a natural tendency to care about the well-being of others.<br /><br />Adam Smith also considered this “sympathy” to be a natural tendency that exists even in "the greatest ruffian, the most hardened violator of the laws of society.” In this, he was woefully naïve, but his naïveté seems to be the norm among free market libertarians.<br /><br />As for the news item, empathy is clearly on the decline in modern America, just as the free market economy is on the decline. The desire for plunder is replacing the desire for honest trade.<br /><br />Beyond Anon,<br /><br />China is a “shame culture.” In China, people will help others for two main reasons: 1) a desire for a reciprocal helping relationship and 2) fear of shaming, if the person in need of help is a relative.<br /><br />Anon,<br /><br />No, Northwest Europeans are largely descended from Mesolithic hunter-fisher-gatherers. The decline of haplogroup U was due to selection and not population replacement.<br /><br />Anon,<br /><br />“The real question would be where things like the Holocaust, ethnic cleansing, colonial expansions, imperial rule, etc. which did not appear to involve universal empathy would fit in in this scheme”<br /><br />Those “things” fit very nicely. Empathy does not mean unconditional love for everybody. If a person is perceived to be morally worthless (i.e., a free rider or a “rule breaker”), that person will be expelled from the group or even killed. This is something that empathic people enjoy doing. “Altruistic punishers experience a neuronally based reward from punishing defectors, despite material costs.” In the past, foreigners were routinely considered to be moral outsiders. They could not be full members of the moral community because they would pursue their own interests at the expense of everyone else’s.<br /><br />Over the past century, we have seen a dramatic reversal of this rule that foreigners are moral outsiders. The rule itself has been deemed immoral, and people who support it are deemed to be moral outsiders. Indeed, the insult “dirty racist” has taken over the same mental space that was formerly reserved for racial/ethnic insults. This point has been made by Pierre-André Taguieff:<br /><br />“… over the last thirty years of the 20th century, the word “racism” became an insult in everyday language (“racist!” “dirty racist!”), an insult derived from the racist insult par excellence (“dirty nigger!”, “dirty Jew!”), and given a symbolic illegitimating power as strong as the political insult “fascist!” or “dirty fascist!”. To say an individual is “racist” is to stigmatize him, to assign him to a heinous category, and to abuse him verbally […] The “racist” individual is thus expelled from the realm of common humanity and excluded from the circle of humans who are deemed respectable by virtue of their intrinsic worth. Through a symbolic act that antiracist sociologists denounce as a way of “racializing” the Other, the “racist” is in turn and in return categorized as an “unworthy” being, indeed as an “unworthy” being par excellence. For, as people say, what can be worse than racism?”<br /><br />Stephen,<br /><br />Because free riders eventually tend to overwhelm altruists. Empathy for non-kin can only arise in a society where social groups are continually forming and reforming, i.e., the haystack model.Peter Fros_noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-35079857052194011582014-06-30T16:02:09.213-04:002014-06-30T16:02:09.213-04:00@Stephen
"Why would pro social guilt based b...@Stephen<br /><br />"Why would pro social guilt based behavior increase in an out bred society with lots of non kin."<br /><br />If you out breed from an initially homogenous but more inbred group the result aren't non-kin. In that context out breeding creates lots more but more loosely related kin.<br /><br />example<br /><br />option 1)<br />valley with 8 endogamous villages. everyone in each village is roughly 2nd cousin to everyone else in their village and 8th cousin to the people in the other villages.<br /><br />option 2)<br />same valley with the 8 villages out breeding leading to everyone in the valley being on average 4th cousin to everyone else in the valley.<br /><br />a different *pattern* of relatedness might change the optimal pattern of pro-social behavior.<br /><br />.<br /><br />ego =<br />2 brothers<br />8 1st cousins<br />32 2nd cousins<br />128 3rd cousins<br />etc<br /><br />(I wonder if Dunbar's numbers are connected to this in some way?)<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-29238587926322410622014-06-30T15:44:58.683-04:002014-06-30T15:44:58.683-04:00"Percentages of what? Obviously we're not..."Percentages of what? Obviously we're not looking at percentages here"<br /><br />I think it's always about percentages. You don't get an entire population thinking one way and another entire population thinking a completely different way. It's a balance of percentages of different types of people with tipping points and the currently dominant group imposing their view with sanctions.<br /><br />It doesn't have to be a majority either. You might get a ruling group with one dominant view and the majority with a different view. I'd say this is the case in the west currently. The upper middle class whites are far more liberal and universal minded than the rest but still dominate even though a minority.<br /><br />For example the point made above about only white people going to help the Chinese guy get up. It won't be 100% of white people and 0% of Chinese but a) a large enough percentage of white people to notice the disparity and b) enough of a percentage of white people for doing it not to be seen as odd and c) a small enough percentage of Chinese for those naturally inclined to do it to stop because they don't want to look odd.<br /><br />.<br /><br />"and trying to even come up with percentages to compare could be difficult."<br /><br />this is very true<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-45586986610998382922014-06-30T10:31:56.839-04:002014-06-30T10:31:56.839-04:00Perhaps two examples of gene-culture co-evolution....Perhaps two examples of gene-culture co-evolution.<br /><br />1. <a href="http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/genetic-genocide-how-primitive-porridge-made-celts-top-scots.24609418" rel="nofollow">Genetic genocide: How primitive porridge made Celts top Scots</a><br /><br /><b>The theory is that the G men's reliance on a diet of roots, fruits, berries and meat meant their infants - whose milk teeth would struggle to chew this material - had to be breastfed much longer. This reduced the rate at which the women could bear offspring.<br /><br />In comparison, the R1b lineages were expert at growing cereal crops and knew how to mash dried oats and barley into a nutritious "primitive porridge" which could be spoon-fed to babies, weaning them much earlier.</b><br /><br />2. In southern China, they feed rice gruel to their kids, also allowing mothers to get busy with having another child or work in the paddies etc.<br /><br />So, in each case, and perhaps also with lactase persistence, more children survive allowing such populations to outbreed their competitors.Beyond Anonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-64790770197612125552014-06-30T07:33:27.114-04:002014-06-30T07:33:27.114-04:00I have a different explanation for the relationshi...I have a different explanation for the relationship, outbreeding and empathy. When a population leave to marry within their families, there will be a greater internal genetic diversification. This begins to build individuals. Ie, people who consider themselves different, unique, compared to the other. Individuals unlike clans, know they are genetic lonely, unconsciously. As a result, they understand that they need to cooperate with others, who will also be a individuals. And they consider as such.<br />Pathological altruism of liberal Europeans, is the result of the individual's perspective. A world composed of individuals, made to individuals and where there is not foreigners, authority or boundaries. The man with no trace of his persona Animalia.<br />An example. Liberals are against authority of parents over their children's choices regarding love relationships. Why?<br />Because your children are individuals, just as they and empathy of liberal parents, makes them understand that their children are prevented from loving whomever they wish, it is an affront to the hyper-rationalist liberal mind. It is irrational to stop them to love who they want.<br />Every individual must cooperate because he is lonely without cooperation with others, regardless of their origins, after all, they are individuals, this feeling of loneliness will become real and extremely damaging.<br /><br />Every individual is egocentric because it is considered as a single person (I read in neuropolitics that white liberals are more genetically diverse). Your empathy for others, is the result of their own self externalization in the skin of another.<br /><br />I will not do what I would be done with me.Gottliebnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-43377823732227059502014-06-30T05:19:53.816-04:002014-06-30T05:19:53.816-04:00Why would pro social guilt based behavior increase...Why would pro social guilt based behavior increase in a in an out bred society with lots of non kin. This seem back to front in a more out bred society group selection would be less and genes for more selfish behavior would have the advantage. Surely you have the cause and effect back to front a population witch already has been bred for pro social behavior would allow a out bred culture to form. Such instincts would of presumably been bred in during a a close nit tribal stage when there was a combination of strong group selection and too many eyes and ears to get away with anything.Stephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02291622298961270279noreply@blogger.com