tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post2306673995452347584..comments2024-03-22T15:55:34.030-04:00Comments on Evo and Proud: Is teen motherhood pathological?Peter Frosthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04303172060029254340noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-2534925822900713192017-12-17T08:14:49.546-05:002017-12-17T08:14:49.546-05:00@Painlord2k
1. The Black men/ White women phenome...@Painlord2k<br /><br />1. The Black men/ White women phenomenon is largely over-exaggerated. Only 14% of married Black men did so outside the race.<br />http://blackdemographics.com/households/marriage-in-black-america/<br /><br />2. Compared to other minorities, Blacks (both male and female) are actually the least likely marry/date outside their race (casual sex however is another story), Hispanics are the most.<br />https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/article/marriage-and-divorce-patterns-by-gender-race-and-educational-attainment.htm<br /><br />3. Blacks are also the least likely to ever marry in general. However, this has no major impact on the fertility or sex life since Blacks are consistently the most sexually active race in America and their fertility rate as of 2017 is 2.1<br />https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/ad/ad384.pdf<br /><br />4. Interracial mating patterns are largely explained by average racial differences in masculinity and femininity. Males of all groups naturally prefer more feminine women, while females of all groups naturally prefer more masculine men. This is why with Blacks (the most masculine race) the males are 2x more likely to mate out, with East Asians (the most feminine race) the females are 3x more likely and with Caucasians (in between of both traits) males and females are equally likely to mate out.lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04600107597161260351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-27154989076687864252011-05-05T13:06:00.960-04:002011-05-05T13:06:00.960-04:00My hypothesis about the teen pregnancy in African ...My hypothesis about the teen pregnancy in African Americans:<br />they are inclined to early pregnancy/motherhood so, when the social norms pressure fell they reverted back to early pregnancies. This was/is more intense with poor AA than with middle class ones (any study about the mixed ancestry of the middle class AA?).<br /><br />But, living in the US, with his welfare and laws and urban setting (where so many poor AA live), the first and the second generations of females were increasingly pushed to invest in themselves and not in their children's children. So their children before and their children's children were forced to reduce their fertility because there was not someone to offload the workload. This forced the mothers to stay poor, because, without the help of their mothers, they would be forced to raise the children themselves and were not able to work and earn.<br /><br />The reduced quality and quantity of parenting and the reduced size of the family caused the children to grow maladapted and with difficult to reproduce. <br /><br />In this cases, the "sins" of the grandparents will fall on the grandchildren.<br /><br />An interesting topic would be the black female - white/whatever male relations (marriage or simply fathering). Do really only the black males go hunting for other race chicks or the female do too but don't tell so much.painlord2k@gmail.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04566115851088917514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-78137593482560547922011-04-25T00:36:25.430-04:002011-04-25T00:36:25.430-04:00Man With 21 Children With 11 Women<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fx8a-V-MnI" rel="nofollow">Man With 21 Children With 11 Women</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-27553374840026381122011-04-21T16:52:35.166-04:002011-04-21T16:52:35.166-04:00mtDNA would (more or less) have to be under select...mtDNA would (more or less) <i>have</i> to be under selection for your ideas about the origin of Europeans to be rightTodnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-53743592876822005002011-04-20T21:51:50.443-04:002011-04-20T21:51:50.443-04:00Anon,
Revenge might be a motivating factor fo...Anon,<br /><br /> Revenge might be a motivating factor for some African American men. But why do we see the same race/sex imbalance in marriages between African Americans and Asians or Latinos?<br /><br /> Chuck,<br /><br /> Interesting. I always thought the pattern was the same with mtDNA. <br /><br /> Reactionary,<br /><br /> Tropical Amerindians seem to have been evolving toward the sub-Saharan model (higher rates of polygyny, female farming, higher male-male competition for mates). But they had not gone as far down that road. This may be because sub-Saharan Africans had more time to adapt to female-dominated tropical horticulture. Or perhaps the relevant genetic variability had been "wrung" out of ancestral Amerindians when they inhabited the Arctic.<br /><br /> Tod,<br /><br /> I'm not sure about teen motherhood. But I think people should marry earlier (and get parental assistance from grandma and grandpa).<br /><br /> Steve,<br /><br /> I regret having had so little contact with my grandparents. I once met my paternal grandfather and never met the others. My mother being 40 when I was born, they all died when I was still a toddler.<br /><br /> Eugene,<br /><br /> There is some tendency to revert to matriarchy and matrilineality, if conditions permit. I suspect those predispositions have not been fully wrung out of the Eurasian gene pool.<br /><br /> 20 April, 2011 8:42:00 PM ESTPeter Frostnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-91084180887954298182011-04-20T19:34:53.378-04:002011-04-20T19:34:53.378-04:00"I have trouble understanding Sarich and Miel..."I have trouble understanding Sarich and Miele's argument because we see the same pattern with Y chromosome and mtDNA variability, both of which are transmitted by one parent."<br /><br />Pete,<br /><br />Here's a comment from Mountain and Risch (2007)<br /><br />"Recent estimates of Average Fst are similar to early estimates, with exceptions such as the human Y and mitochondrial DNA (somewhat higher Fst values) and sets of STR loci (relatively low Fst values). A low average Fst for neutral genetic markers suggests that the power to define phenotypic differences in racial and ethnic categories is not typical of a single neutrally evolving locus. On the other hand, an Fst estimate of .10-.15 does not rule out a genetic basis for phenotypic differences between groups...."<br /> <br />Now, they cite Jorde,et al (2000), who state:<br /><br />"GST values are 11%–18% for the autosomal systems and are two to three times higher for the mtDNA sequence and Y-chromosome RSPs."<br /><br />Based on Jorde (2000), it doesn't seem that the mtDNA and Y Fst values are inconsistent with Sarich's point. The comment in Mountain and Risch (2004) reinforce, in my mind, the importance of resolving this and -- if Sarich is right, having someone publish "Lewontin's Fallacy 2.0."<br /><br />Jorde, 2000. The distribution of human genetic diversity: a comparison of mitochondrial, autosomal, and Y-chromosome data<br /><br />Mountain and Risch (2004). Assessing genetic contributions to phenotypic differences among contributions to phenotypic differences among 'racial' and 'ethnic' groups.Chucknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-22933998913332675072011-04-20T09:54:51.253-04:002011-04-20T09:54:51.253-04:00BTW, thanks for that book recommendation, I'll...BTW, thanks for that book recommendation, I'll have to research it.Eugenenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-10975814942502167492011-04-20T09:09:24.500-04:002011-04-20T09:09:24.500-04:00To some degree, matrilineal care for children is a...To some degree, matrilineal care for children is a feature of *all* human societies, not just blacks, for the simple reason of paternity uncertainty on the father's side. The wife's clan has the guarantee that any of her children are 100% hers, so they have more incentive to help with child-rearing, which is not the case with the husband's clan. ("Mommy's baby, daddy's maybe")Eugenenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-13014818949780878862011-04-19T22:11:19.105-04:002011-04-19T22:11:19.105-04:00My late mother-in-law, who was an energetic, sensi...My late mother-in-law, who was an energetic, sensible, and good-natured woman, died suddenly at a fairly young age just before our first child was born. In retrospect, lacking her help definitely made life harder subsequently for my wife and me.Steve Sailerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11920109042402850214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-30166068333929011942011-04-19T22:02:58.688-04:002011-04-19T22:02:58.688-04:00Barack Obama benefited from having a white grandmo...Barack Obama benefited from having a white grandmother who was only about 39 years older than him. When he was in prep school, living with his white grandparents in a tenth floor apartment with spectacular views of Honolulu, she was a vigorous woman in her mid-50s earning a lot of money as a bank executive.Steve Sailerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11920109042402850214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-6166742970920791802011-04-19T17:40:07.579-04:002011-04-19T17:40:07.579-04:00The last comment was by me.The last comment was by me.Todnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-70635649165682710812011-04-19T15:05:16.581-04:002011-04-19T15:05:16.581-04:00Teen motherhood may be pathological from a socio-e...Teen motherhood may be pathological from a socio-economic perspective but it certainly is not maladaptive from a biological point of view. Conversely, the most educated women are the most likely to never become mothers.<br /><br />(Eugene, I don't like quotation marks that do not contain an exact quote.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-35519853629965984012011-04-19T12:39:12.651-04:002011-04-19T12:39:12.651-04:00@Dragon Horse: The point about Hispanics is a inte...@Dragon Horse: The point about Hispanics is a interesting one.<br /><br />Perhaps central American Ameridians are likewise adapted to the lack of seasons? But this is foolish speculation I'll rather go research if the surviving native societies in the region are matrilinear or not...Reactionary_Konkvistadornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-40118492703007596442011-04-19T09:19:09.966-04:002011-04-19T09:19:09.966-04:00Pete,
I’m not sure. We have .10 between races, ...Pete,<br /><br />I’m not sure. We have .10 between races, .5 within races between populations, x within populations between individuals, 1- (.15 + x) within individuals between chromosomes (or whatever). For X = .85, the within individual variance would have to be equal to 0. Yet we know that it isn’t. Intra individual variance is not uncommonly assessed for other animals -- so that can’t be it. <br /><br />I don’t know. Somebody's wrong here and I would like to find out who (Barbujani or Sarich).chucknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-85082717361848126432011-04-18T17:34:31.242-04:002011-04-18T17:34:31.242-04:00"I personally don't give much weight to e..."I personally don't give much weight to explanation #2. Most men are not political creatures. It also doesn't explain why African American men would also seek to marry Latina and Asian women."<br /><br />Although generally I agree with you, I don't think we can dismiss his arguments so easily. <br /><br />He may be referring to "revenge" in a psychological context as opposed to a political or sociological one. <br /><br />I've read this line or reasoning before from other authors and I've seen plenty of good reasons that points to African exogamy and miscegenation in general as things which involve plenty of psychological baggage, not the least of which, as a form of inter-ethnic warfareAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-40535534110974430592011-04-18T16:05:42.870-04:002011-04-18T16:05:42.870-04:00Chuck,
I have trouble understanding Sarich and Mi...Chuck,<br /><br />I have trouble understanding Sarich and Miele's argument because we see the same pattern with Y chromosome and mtDNA variability, both of which are transmitted by one parent.<br /><br />Dragon Horse,<br /><br />I think I agree with you. I'm not arguing for some kind of genetic difference between the teen mother subculture and other African Americans. <br /><br />Among African Americans, as among all populations, there is some variation in life circumstances. Some individuals are more strongly subjected than others to Euro-American marital norms.<br /><br />These individuals account for a larger or smaller fraction of the African American population, in proportion to the ideological and cultural pressure of Euro-American norms. When the pressure was intense, about three-quarters of all African Americans complied with these norms. Today, this pressure has slackened considerably, so the "compliers" are correspondingly fewer in number.<br /><br />Eugene,<br /><br />You should read the book "Sexual Racism" by C.H. Stember. There are three main explanations:<br /><br />1. Men in general tend to be more exogamous (because they tend to meet more strangers than women do).<br /><br />2. African American men see exogamy as a form of revenge against White America.<br /><br />3. African Americaan men perceive Euro-American women as more sexually attractive than their own women.<br /><br />I personally don't give much weight to explanation #2. Most men are not political creatures. It also doesn't explain why African American men would also seek to marry Latina and Asian women.<br /><br />Explanation #3 is probably the most important one. We can argue back and forth about the nature of sexual beauty and its causes, but it seems to have the most explanatory power.<br /><br />Henry,<br /><br />I agree. In sub-Saharan Africa, polygyny is institutionalized, and men do have an important role in society. But, as you point out, a man's obligations are primarily to his own kin, not to his wife's.Peter Frostnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-85919886872997706932011-04-17T20:33:29.827-04:002011-04-17T20:33:29.827-04:00Senegal is because of Islam...many Arab men do the...Senegal is because of Islam...many Arab men do the sameUncleTomRuckusInGoodWhiteWorldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07508650487951730570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-16590927998148845342011-04-17T16:41:17.703-04:002011-04-17T16:41:17.703-04:00In Senegal men prefer to marry their maternal uncl...In Senegal men prefer to marry their maternal uncle's daughter.Todnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-7827891166078720432011-04-17T02:24:58.156-04:002011-04-17T02:24:58.156-04:00Peter much of this discussion leaves us with the i...Peter much of this discussion leaves us with the impression that both in sub-Saharan Africa and in the US Black community males are kind of useless and irrelevant.<br /><br />I don't know anything about US Black sociology but at least in some African groups males are both hard-working and responsible, not to their wives and children, but to their mothers, sisters, and sisters' children, i.e. right out of textbooks about matrilineal social organization.<br /><br />Once in Africa the neighborhood matriarch/busybody summoned me for a chat as I was getting ready to go shoot a buffalo being destructive in the neighborhood. "When you die, Henry, as you surely will, what shall we do with all your property?"<br /><br />"Give it to my wife" I said.<br /><br />She was outraged and appalled. "Don't you Europeans have any responsibility to your families?" she asked. Never occurred to her that my wife was a member of my family. Instead my goods should go to my sisters, etc.Henry Harpendingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-40991271499977839482011-04-16T20:47:23.436-04:002011-04-16T20:47:23.436-04:00Tod, au contraire. It appears you didn't read ...Tod, au contraire. It appears you didn't read the original post fully. I quote:<br /><br />"She is estranged from him, and this estrangement borders on hostility if the father consorts with white women. The following comment is from a 14-year-old mother: <br /><br />'...There ain't no reason to waste your time on a colored man because they don't want us no way.'"<br /><br />End quote.Eugenenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-88850002488188760322011-04-16T18:51:18.332-04:002011-04-16T18:51:18.332-04:00Eugene, about what you put in quotation marks. Pet...Eugene, about what you put in quotation marks. Peter said no such thing and you don't deserve a response to comments like that.Todnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-89788163669294184702011-04-16T17:34:15.327-04:002011-04-16T17:34:15.327-04:00You mentioned in your post something about "b...You mentioned in your post something about "black men trying to consort with white women." Can you expand on that phenomenon, how common it is and why it occurs? Has there been any research into the topic of why black men are chasing after white women?<br /><br />(By the way, African-Americans aren't the only group whose strategy is early reproduction. In the book "Sperm Wars" scientist Robin Baker argues that another group that does that is bisexuals/gays. Their sexual promiscuity, including with the opposite sex, leads to earlier reproduction but also early death due to diseases, a trade-off that keeps their rate in line with that of heterosexuals.)Eugenenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-9755812369020573172011-04-16T16:16:58.561-04:002011-04-16T16:16:58.561-04:00Peter:
1) I used Hispanic (most of them in the U....Peter:<br /><br />1) I used Hispanic (most of them in the U.S. are Mestizo) as a comparison. Is that not a fair one? They are not primarily African in decent, they are primarily Iberian/Amerindian.<br /><br />2) Also, how can you look at numbers of out of wedlock teen pregnancy and assume that there is no paternal involvement because the teen is not married? Should I look at out of wedlock childbirth in Scandinavia and the UK and assume no paternal involvement? (that would be a false assumption). Being a "babies daddy" does not mean you don't take care of your children in "the hood", it means you aren't married to the mother. Not taking care of your children is not called a "babies daddy" as much as it is called "a dog".<br /><br />3) If this subcultural is somehow biological (it seems to me you are implying this, although you did not say it, please correct me if I'm wrong) then why is it that this "subculture" all the sudden got far worse in the 1960's or so and then dramatically reduced starting in the early 1990's?<br /><br />If we assume 25 years per generation, I don't believe African Americans had some great genetic gene sweep in 1 to 1.5 generations to explain this. Also African Americans had been "free" since the 1860's, you would assume that this trend would have been much greater the further back you go, but it is not. The overall teen pregnancy rate (out of wedlock) for black Americans increased sharply from the relatively low levels in the early 1900's not decreased slowly overtime.<br /><br /><br />I think a better way to look at this is, simple.<br /><br />If white American catches a cold, black Americans will have pneumonia. I would bet money that if you track black and white Americans (and later Hispanics) you will see a rise in out of wedlock child birth, teen pregnancy, and divorce rates increasing from 1965 - 1995 and then trailing off sharply.<br /><br />The difference is the black numbers would always be higher than the white, but the whites will show the same pattern, but it is an issue of "degree" not kind.UncleTomRuckusInGoodWhiteWorldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07508650487951730570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-69504782092087683322011-04-16T16:05:38.799-04:002011-04-16T16:05:38.799-04:00" translate into 22-35% between individual va..." translate into 22-35% between individual variance -- when we factor out intraindividual variance?"<br /><br />This should say: "between individual, between population variance"Chucknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-85428429738942011092011-04-16T16:02:43.892-04:002011-04-16T16:02:43.892-04:00Pete
"Anon,
I've dealt with this argume...Pete<br /><br />"Anon,<br /><br />I've dealt with this argument in previous posts. Yes, there is much more genetic variation within human populations than between them. But we see the same kind of genetic overlap between many sibling species that are nonetheless anatomically, physiologically, and behaviorally distinct."<br /><br />I was more interested in the basic math. Does the 10-15% between population variance (Fst) (commonly found) translate into 22-35% between individual variance -- when we factor out intraindividual variance? Nobody seems to be able to give me an answer to this. <br /><br />Based on my reading of Fst, it seems like it. But that isn't my field.Chucknoreply@blogger.com