tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post2320969267675989929..comments2024-03-22T15:55:34.030-04:00Comments on Evo and Proud: Why is IQ declining in Norway?Peter Frosthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04303172060029254340noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-21694410331750539182019-08-02T07:07:39.268-04:002019-08-02T07:07:39.268-04:00I read this post and this is very informative blog...I read this post and this is very informative blog .<br /><a href="https://blog.mindvalley.com/iq-stands-for/" rel="nofollow">https://blog.mindvalley.com/iq-stands-for/</a>Mindvalleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07258228697025638864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-84594754326686950142018-06-29T18:59:03.707-04:002018-06-29T18:59:03.707-04:00I would caution against using military IQ tests, b...I would caution against using military IQ tests, because they tend to have perverse real life incentives. Score too high and you are more likely to be selected for NCO training of for reserve officer school. In Finland since 1995 most conscripts have to serve only six months, but those selected for wartime leadership positions are expected to serve 12 months. Before 1995 the difference was only between 8 months and eleven months. <br /><br />I am not familiar with the Norwegian system, but there may well be similar factors at play.Cerberusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-22711201224478407552018-06-24T01:18:28.549-04:002018-06-24T01:18:28.549-04:00The graph in the paper indicates that it is in fac...The graph in the paper indicates that it is in fact at exactly the same time. Are you saying that they manipulated the numbers until the curves perfectly overlapped? Also, as I mentioned earlier: A slowing Flynn effect would not show the linear rise we see in the data. Within the time interval covered by the data, there is no slowing. Just a sudden reversal. <br /><br />PhilleAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-59832752660285151732018-06-23T17:40:41.217-04:002018-06-23T17:40:41.217-04:00Dear Dr.Frost
first I wanted to say that I have b...Dear Dr.Frost<br /><br />first I wanted to say that I have been a long time admirer of your work and am very happy to see you posting again.<br /><br />I wanted to ask if there was any way I could contact you via E-Mail?<br /><br />I would really like to ask you some questions and to offer the assistance that my training as a historian allows me. <br /><br />Thank you in advance and sorry for my bad English.Unknown128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-86173844885428573002018-06-23T13:24:50.824-04:002018-06-23T13:24:50.824-04:00Anon,
"at exactly the same time" is an ...Anon,<br /><br />"at exactly the same time" is an overstatement. It would be more correct to say "within a span of perhaps ten years"<br /><br /><br />In any case, the Flynn effect stopped in Norway probably for the same reason it has been slowing down elsewhere in the Western world. We have largely exhausted the possibilities for improving IQ scores within the existing genotype. There is still debate on the causes of the Flynn effect, but the general view is that it is partly due to people becoming more familiar with tests and test-taking and partly due to better nutrition and a more stimulating learning environment.<br /><br />That in itself would not cause a subsequent IQ decline. It would simply cause the increase to level off. The IQ decline seems to have begun long before, perhaps in the early 20th century. The Flynn effect has simply masked it, and now that the Flynn effect has lost steam, we're now seeing this underlying decline.Peter Frosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04303172060029254340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-11066537513859074272018-06-23T09:52:23.034-04:002018-06-23T09:52:23.034-04:00Anders Brievik's father was a diplomat, his mo...Anders Brievik's father was a diplomat, his mother remarried--an army officer. Beivik was not conscripted. It would seem that the proportion of people who avoid serving has been rising for decades. It was illegal to cohabit in Norway up until the 50's. Oil wealthy Norway has had excellent welfare and maternity benefits and rates of pay for some time now.<br /><br />"<a href="https://www.uio.no/studier/emner/hf/iln/NORINT0500/h08/undervisningsmateriale/Unmarried_cohabitation_and_family_policy_in_Norway.pdf" rel="nofollow">UNMARRIED</a> cohabitation has increased steadily since 1977. Of all women aged 20–44, 5% cohabited in 1977, 18% in 1987 and 24% in 1996".<br /><br />Martin Van Creveld says that when women enter any occupation or institution in numbers it declined in prestige and men don't want to make it their career. Norway is a very feminist country and currently it even conscripts women.Seannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-78087840193881035622018-06-23T06:03:26.554-04:002018-06-23T06:03:26.554-04:00@Peter Frost: Of course, if second sons are father...@Peter Frost: Of course, if second sons are fathered by lower IQ men, this would also show up in the IQ trend of firstborn sons. But only in the next generation, not at exactly the same time. These two trends reverse both exactly in 1975, and I still don't see how you would get that within your theory. <br /><br />PhilleAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-20185864443307489432018-06-22T23:12:25.621-04:002018-06-22T23:12:25.621-04:00Ridiculous. Men who are competitive in marriage ma...Ridiculous. Men who are competitive in marriage markets aren't the one with High IQs! Many of today's incels are educated and intelligent.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-51458941177266388032018-06-22T16:48:58.077-04:002018-06-22T16:48:58.077-04:00The paper argues that within-family variation can ...The paper argues that within-family variation can account for all of the IQ decline. The declining IQ of first-born sons over time is therefore due to whatever is causing IQ to decline from first to second sons within each family. This decline would be consistent with an overall genetic change in the population. In other words:<br /><br />1. The second son is being fathered by a segment of the Norwegian population that has, on average, a lower IQ than that of Norwegians in general.<br /><br />2. This low-IQ segment is thus contributing disproportionately to the next generation.<br /><br />3. Therefore, from generation to generation, the first-born son should, on average, have a lower IQ.<br /><br />"for your thesis it is not enough to show that second husbands are less intelligent (do you have a reference for that?), after all divorce also frees up the high-IQ first husband to have more kids with other women."<br /><br />I will discuss this at greater length in my next post. The short answer is that in Norway stepfathers are most likely to be men with the lowest level of education (10 years of schooling). Second place goes to men with college or university education (14 to 17 years of schooling), and third place goes to men with upper secondary (11 to 13 years of schooling). <br /><br />It is difficult to calculate overall reproductive success because many men are little more than sperm donors, i.e., there is no good record of all of the women they inseminate. If we look at childlessness, the highest rate is among men with the lowest level of schooling and the lowest rate is among men with the highest level of schooling. But the children are not necessarily fathered by the legally defined "father." When a man adopts the children of his spouse, they become his children.<br /><br />Many men from the lowest level of schooling go through life without every being in a stable relationship, but this doesn't mean they are childless: <br /><br />"[…]the propensity to have children with more than one woman is most pronounced among those with low education. Becoming a father is thus more of a selective process for men with low education than for men with higher education, but having become fathers, low-educated men are much more likely to have another child with a new partner. Obviously, multi-partner fertility is closely linked to union dissolution, but we should underline that some of these men have never been in a stable relationship with the mother."<br /><br />http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.839.2752&rep=rep1&type=pdfPeter Frosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04303172060029254340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-44771049724605179652018-06-22T04:33:50.359-04:002018-06-22T04:33:50.359-04:00@Peter Frost: Page 3 in the paper under discussion...@Peter Frost: Page 3 in the paper under discussion has three graphs comparing within-family trends with between-family trends.The caption includes the explanation that the between-family trend is calculated on the basis of the IQ scores of firstborn sons: "... The dashed line depicts the trend for firstborn sons ...". <br /><br />Your "low IQ second husband"-explanation cannot account for the fact that firstborn sons show exactly the same trend as pairs of brothers. <br /><br />By the way, for your thesis it is not enough to show that second husbands are less intelligent (do you have a reference for that?), after all divorce also frees up the high-IQ first husband to have more kids with other women. Given the existence of menopause, the divorced first husbands may actually have more kids on average than the divorced wife. That is certainly the case in my social circle, which of course may not be representative. <br /><br />Anyway, I didn't mean to "damn you with faint praise", I'm just somewhat tone-deaf and arrogant, sorry about that. I really do think that you have very creative insights, which is the reason why I read your blog.<br /><br />@Sean: You mix birth year (drop started with birth year '75) and conscription year (which is 19 years later). That conscription age lowering probably even lies outside the time interval covered by the data.<br /><br />PhilleAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-90417510937586505382018-06-21T15:03:45.384-04:002018-06-21T15:03:45.384-04:00Anon,
Norway's welfare state was created in t...Anon,<br /><br />Norway's welfare state was created in the late 1930s and the postwar era. Initially, it helped to strengthen the family, and it has only been since circa 1980 that an effort to redefine and weaken the family has come into play.<br /><br />Phille,<br /><br />First, before "damning me with faint praise," please provide references for your arguments. As far as I can see, there is no contradiction between your argument and mine. I agree that something happened between 1975 and 1985. There was an ideological shift away from old-line leftism and toward a new kind of leftism that was less interested in the working class and more interested in dismantling traditional structures, like the family.<br /><br />I agree that other deleterious changes have been going on. In general, the "deregulation of sexual life" has had negative effects on everyone concerned. However, Bratsberg and Rogeberg (2018) argue that the decline in IQ can be largely, if not wholly, explained by within-family effects. It certainly looks like the major cause of the decline is within-family.<br /><br />Sean,<br /><br />In that case, there would have been a one-time drop circa 1976. That's not what we see.<br /><br />Anon,<br /><br />This could be another within-family effect. Infant mortality and miscarriages tend to remove children or fetuses that already have developmental problemsPeter Frosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04303172060029254340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-16950232162554369832018-06-21T13:33:02.947-04:002018-06-21T13:33:02.947-04:00Norway - Infant mortality rate
https://knoema.com/...Norway - Infant mortality rate<br />https://knoema.com/atlas/Norway/topics/Demographics/Mortality/Infant-mortality-rate<br /><br />Born Too Soon<br />https://www.marchofdimes.org/mission/global-preterm.aspx#tabs-3<br /><br />Preemies and underweight babies more likely to have low IQs<br />https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-preemies-cognition/preemies-and-underweight-babies-more-likely-to-have-low-iqs-idUSKCN1G31VIAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-19638689263024819112018-06-20T08:24:00.129-04:002018-06-20T08:24:00.129-04:00Conscription age in Norway was lowered from 20 to ...Conscription age in Norway was lowered from 20 to 19 years of age in 1976. Maybe those 19 year olds were trying less hard for some reason of their own. <br /><br />An bit of an IQ decline between older and younger siblings would be expected, the first born has a definite biological advantage--younger your mother the better. The mother would be appreciably older by the time she had children in a different relationship.Seannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-24758097681923380822018-06-20T07:46:26.298-04:002018-06-20T07:46:26.298-04:00The paper only reproduces a trend within families ...The paper only reproduces a trend within families that was already noticed to operate between families. The IQ of firstborn sons also rose until birth year 1975 and then started to drop. Your theory demands that there are two different things going on, one for firstborn sons and another for pairs of brothers, that lead to exactly the same changes at exactly the same time. That's not very plausible. <br /><br />I applaud your creativity but I think this time you missed the mark. But here is another puzzle piece to exercise that creativity on: Take another look at the graph. It basically rises linearly until 1975 and then turns on a dime and drops linearly. Most potential causes of a decline would not result in that kind of abrupt reversal. Instead they would weaken the positive trend until it slowly reverses. I think your proposed solution would also not cause a abrupt reversal. Instead we are looking for a cause that probably started from scratch between 1975 and 1985, was immediately strong enough to reverse the positive trend and proceeded linearly. <br /><br />PhilleAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-76776130007944780362018-06-19T18:45:47.655-04:002018-06-19T18:45:47.655-04:00Do you think the Scandinavian welfare state has an...Do you think the Scandinavian welfare state has anything to do with it as well as the undermining of the traditional family unit caused by bastardry?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-54975329215272906842018-06-19T17:10:10.533-04:002018-06-19T17:10:10.533-04:00As usual, well argued and well documented.As usual, well argued and well documented.Luke Leahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11290760894780619646noreply@blogger.com