tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post2680494989278522651..comments2024-03-22T15:55:34.030-04:00Comments on Evo and Proud: The Western European marriage patternPeter Frosthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04303172060029254340noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-16251941319581213612012-02-24T18:54:03.338-05:002012-02-24T18:54:03.338-05:00"But was Western Europe even particularly tha..."But was Western Europe even particularly that saturated? Compared to any other area of Eurasia?"<br /><br />Late marriage as alternative to female infanticide?Greying Wanderernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-88294549634501636222011-11-20T01:18:06.006-05:002011-11-20T01:18:06.006-05:00What about the role of nuns in establishing hospic...<i>What about the role of nuns in establishing hospices and the first hospitals? And what about universities and colleges? Weren't they too monastic institutions?</i><br /><br />Hmm... I'll have to check this, but my shoot-from-the-hip recollection is that the role of nuns in hospices and hospitals was minimal until the Reformation. I'm not sure where I'll find some information on this, but now that you've piqued my curiosity, I'll poke around to see what I can find; if I find anything definitive one way or the other, I'll post it here.<br /><br />I do know that the first European universities were established as training facilities for clergy. This was primarily because in the early Middle Ages, the only reason to read was for religious purposes, and so only clerics could read. This was the basis for our use of the word 'legit'; by reading, a person could prove his status as a cleric, thereby placing him under Church jurisdiction, which was considerably more lenient than secular law. <br /><br />When Erasmus attended the University of Paris in the late 15th century, it was the leading educational institution in Europe, and was attended mostly, but not entirely, by clerics. Some nobility also attended. So even that late, universities were not so much a public service as a Church function. This is not to deny the public service carried out by the universities, merely to place that service in perspective.Chris Crawfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14926445098765433310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-7539030136350405232011-11-19T11:44:26.216-05:002011-11-19T11:44:26.216-05:00Beyong Anon,
Not just the Napoleonic Wars. The la...<i>Beyong Anon,<br /><br />Not just the Napoleonic Wars. The last two world wars reaped a grim harvest of young able men. After WWII, there was a huge surplus of unmarried women in the Soviet Union.<br /></i><br /><br />It is notable that one country is said to have a high ratio of males to females.Beyond Anonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-31575410112179076732011-11-18T12:33:44.305-05:002011-11-18T12:33:44.305-05:00first go here:
http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/hom...first go here:<br />http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/issue/racf_0220-6617_1985_num_24_2<br /><br />then read:<br />Revue archéologique du Centre de la France. Tome 24, fascicule 2, 1985<br />NOTES and DOCUMENTS<br />"Les Mérovingiens de Sublaines (Indre-et-Loire) : Complément à l'étude anthropologique / The Merovingians of Sublaines (Indre-et-Loire) : Complement to the anthropological study. G. Cordier"<br /><br />Open the pdf, page 247-255<br />Page 247:<br />"....nous rappellerons...quelques données relatives aux crânes tirées de l'étude du Dr. R. riquet (Tabl. 1 à 3). Les figures 13 et 14 illustrent le dimorphisme sexuel<br />d'une « ampleur presque anormale » noté par ce dernier..."<br /><br />So, apparently, figures 13 and 14 are an example of the 'almost abnormal' dimorphism observed by Dr. Riquet. I am no anthropologist and can't judge these figures but maybe you can.<br />The reference for Dr Riquet's article is in 'Gallia':<br />Cordier G., RiQuet R. et Brabant H. — Le site archéologique<br />du dolmen de Villaine à Sublaines (Indre-et-Loire) - II, Cimetière<br />mérovingien. Gallia, XXXII, 1974 : 163-221.Ben10noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-5977686674907431092011-11-17T21:01:54.794-05:002011-11-17T21:01:54.794-05:00Chris, Anon,
You're right on primogeniture. I...Chris, Anon,<br /><br />You're right on primogeniture. It appears to have been solely of feudal origin, at least according to G.C. Brodrick (1871-72) The Law and Custom of Primogeniture.<br /><br />So the Western European Marriage Pattern cannot go back farther than the Dark Ages. It is probably a result of two historical trends: a) rising population pressures on farmland from the early Middle Ages onward and b) the shift toward primogeniture by post-Roman kingdoms.<br /><br />Chris,<br /><br />What about the role of nuns in establishing hospices and the first hospitals? And what about universities and colleges? Weren't they too monastic institutions?<br /><br />Before the 19th century, the State was largely concerned with defense. Social welfare services were dispensed by the Church. Perhaps this is more obvious to me living in Quebec, where universities, schools, colleges, hospitals, and asylums were largely owned and run by the Catholic Church until the early 1960s.<br /><br />Ben10,<br /><br />Could you provide a reference? <br /><br />Sean,<br /><br />"Sneaky fucking" is a very high risk strategy where paternal investment is high. Until recent times, the law implicitly recognized the right of a man to kill his wife's lover. Even today, juries are reluctant to convict in such situations.Peter Frostnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-40627083346832703492011-11-17T15:25:29.310-05:002011-11-17T15:25:29.310-05:00The difference was 'primogeniture.' In Wes...<i>The difference was 'primogeniture.' In Western Europe, farms were generally passed on to the eldest son. There was a strong reluctance to divide up the inheritance.</i><br /><br />Thanks for your response. Though my understanding was that the current historical status quo was partial inheritance rather than primogeniture for the Germanic tribes (and Celtic societies), i.e. "in the late Neolithic of Western Europe" (although possibly there was a primogeniture stage for which we have no evidence). This is an interesting idea otherwise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-75035362914282897062011-11-16T17:08:30.313-05:002011-11-16T17:08:30.313-05:00Even very young men might get opportunities for il...Even very young men might get opportunities for illicit impregnation of other (resource-rich) men's wives. Even if only one in a hundred manage it that would have an effect over the generations. What is the advantage in retarding maturity? If that were done the youngest men would not be capable of taking advantage of those opportunities when they present themselves. Even 15 year old 'men' must have succeeded in cuckolding wealthy men occasionally.Seannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-89776825199546392102011-11-16T12:41:42.903-05:002011-11-16T12:41:42.903-05:00off topic Peter, but regarding your theory of sexu...off topic Peter, but regarding your theory of sexual selection in europe...and the lack of the expected sexual dimorphism, i found a report in a french archeological magazine about frankish graves (3rd-7th century) and skeletons analysis that mention an almost unbelievable dimorphism bewteen males and females.Ben10noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-37327722243772559992011-11-16T11:46:39.972-05:002011-11-16T11:46:39.972-05:00I have a problem with the hypothesis that European...I have a problem with the hypothesis that European marriage patterns were set in ancient times by limitations on the supply of land. In Pounds, An Historical Geography of Europe, 450 BC - AD 1330, we find that conversion of forest land to farm land really took off after about 1100 CE. He notes that this conversion process kept pace with the increase in population. Moreover, crop yields steadily rose from Carolingian times. Thus, it would seem that a young man without an inheritance could set up a new farm in the forest, starting off with simple slash-and-burn, then expanding with the axe. <br /><br />The European forest area did not reach its minimum until about 1300 CE. I would think, therefore, that land constraints were not a primary factor in inhibition of early marriage. <br /><br />I'm also a bit uncomfortable with the hypothesis that these marriage patterns forced people into public service. While it's true that shipping unmarriageable women off to nunneries was common, the nunneries themselves performed little in the way of public service; they were less outgoing than the monasteries, attempting to protect the virginity of their residents through social isolation. Most of their labor, I believe, was devoted to manufacture of priestly vestments and other church support activities.<br /><br />It is true that Christian society exalted celibacy over marriage. The attitude seemed to be that a devout Christian would maintain celibacy, but marriage was an acceptable route for the many who could not meet such a high standard. I recall reading Erasmus attacking this notion with the assertion that marriage was every bit as honorable as celibacy. <br /><br />Lastly, the increased role of public service surely played a role in the development of the modern state, but there are many other causal factors that, IMO, were of greater importance, such as the high cost of firearms encouraging centralization of power.Chris Crawfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14926445098765433310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-72478764523506798852011-11-16T08:46:18.266-05:002011-11-16T08:46:18.266-05:00hbd chick,
I've heard a lot about your blog, ...hbd chick,<br /><br />I've heard a lot about your blog, but I've only just now gotten around to seeing it. Great work!<br /><br />Anon,<br /><br />The difference was 'primogeniture.' In Western Europe, farms were generally passed on to the eldest son. There was a strong reluctance to divide up the inheritance.<br /><br />Of course, this begs the question. Why did primogeniture become so important in Western Europe? I have no answer.<br /><br />Beyong Anon,<br /><br />Not just the Napoleonic Wars. The last two world wars reaped a grim harvest of young able men. After WWII, there was a huge surplus of unmarried women in the Soviet Union.<br /><br />Lindsay Wheeler,<br /><br />You're mistaking effects for causes. The rise of open societies, where cultural restraints are looser, made it easier for people to be atheists, freethinkers, etc.<br /><br />By the way, my mother's family were freemasons. <br /><br />Sean,<br /><br />Because you can't play unless you have land.Peter Frostnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-1719745840013070212011-11-15T15:02:55.275-05:002011-11-15T15:02:55.275-05:00"there would have been a tendency to slow the...<b>"there would have been a tendency to slow the pace of sexual maturation for both biological and psychological traits."</b><br /><br />I don't quite get why. You've got to play to win. So why not get in the game early ?Seannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-81350764375526403652011-11-13T22:25:45.172-05:002011-11-13T22:25:45.172-05:00I'd like to see Bob Allen's comment on thi...I'd like to see <a href="http://www.nuffield.ox.ac.uk/General/Members/allen.aspx" rel="nofollow">Bob Allen's</a> comment on this. It's one of his specialties. I'll send him a link.Luke Leahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11290760894780619646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-91955698661233547712011-11-13T17:50:54.116-05:002011-11-13T17:50:54.116-05:00The rise of the Modern State had nothing to do wit...The rise of the Modern State had nothing to do with Protestantism, Atheism, and Freemasonry? But all with biological events?<br /><br />Balderdash.<br /><br />Cultural evolution? There is no such thing. Culture was manipulated starting with the atheist Machaivelli. Revolution within the form. Not to mention the rise of the Kabbala in snyc with the Hermetic Tradition which morphed into Freemasonry. Culture does not evolve---Christendom was deconstructed by the Atheists, Protestants, Deists and Kabbalists. The Modern State arose from them and nowhere else.W.LindsayWheelerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06236577164127792348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-23821995433693350982011-11-13T12:38:09.227-05:002011-11-13T12:38:09.227-05:00Slightly off topic, but I wonder what the loss of ...Slightly off topic, but I wonder what the loss of all those men in Napoleon's wars did to France's national character.<br /><br />Ie, did it change the ratio of males to females such that males now could choose?<br /><br />I wonder if we can correlate the (loss of) vigor of any (Western) societies to the loss of males in wars?<br /><br />I wonder if any group of leaders has had a long term plan of building up a surplus of males so that they could afford to lose many in war(s) while still remaining vigorous?Beyond Anonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-4727837162273579562011-11-12T14:48:16.141-05:002011-11-12T14:48:16.141-05:00I suspect its origins lie in the late Neolithic of...<i>I suspect its origins lie in the late Neolithic of Western Europe, when farming communities had reached a saturation point. With farmland in short supply, young men and women had to wait their turn before they could marry and have children of their own.</i><br /><br />But was Western Europe even particularly that saturated? Compared to any other area of Eurasia? <br /><br />Density seems similar between Europe and Asia from 1500 just prior to the slowing of European population increase in the late 19th and early 20th century, if we take Wikipedia's population estimate as accurate, Europe hovers around 1/3 of Asia's population density and the bulk of Asia's population concentrated in South Asia and East Asia and South East Asia has around 2-3 times the land area. Increase seems to happen at the same rate.<br /><br />And why would the Northern European frontier have reached saturation prior to the relatively Southern and Eastern areas with earlier agriculture? I'd guess if there was an answer, it would be a relatively maladapted agricultural system that was unusually dependent on animals which were more land hungry than crops. But I don't have high confidence this is the case.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-12679554915957051332011-11-12T13:10:06.196-05:002011-11-12T13:10:06.196-05:00"Together with the prohibition of cousin marr...<i>"Together with the prohibition of cousin marriage, this pattern of lengthy and sometimes lifelong celibacy paved the way for a future of larger and more open societies where the State, and not one’s clan, would provide collective services. Of course, it wasn’t planned that way. Nothing is planned in cultural or biological evolution. Western Europe simply accumulated a mix of cultural traits that would later make possible the rise of ‘modern society.’"</i><br /><br />yes, <a href="http://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/whatever-happened-to-european-tribes/" rel="nofollow">indeed</a>. (^_^)hbd chickhttp://hbdchick.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com