tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post4403585904788313582..comments2024-03-22T15:55:34.030-04:00Comments on Evo and Proud: The origins of Northwest European guilt culturePeter Frosthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04303172060029254340noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-72590168442252351702021-11-20T06:38:23.345-05:002021-11-20T06:38:23.345-05:00Great!Great!Egészség figyelőhttp://egeszseg-figyelo.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-58797306049290026972014-09-08T10:05:04.433-04:002014-09-08T10:05:04.433-04:00Wow. No wonder NW Europeans have high concept of r...Wow. No wonder NW Europeans have high concept of right and wrong; hence, fair justice for all. Their guilt culture also I think gave way to their enlightenment since they learned how to self-reflect. But it is really intriguing that they are the only people who developed that kind of culture, whereas most of the world deal with what other people say, which results in external sense of shame only without true self reflection.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18027321182388475513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-82623531733860871592014-01-17T14:14:33.484-05:002014-01-17T14:14:33.484-05:00"If I have to choose between guilt, shame, an..."If I have to choose between guilt, shame, and totalitarian state control, I'll choose guilt."<br /><br />Yes. Guilt sucks but not as much as the others.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-34058186347838842332014-01-17T13:47:42.991-05:002014-01-17T13:47:42.991-05:00"But one thing I don't understand is how ..."But one thing I don't understand is how these countries have not already collapsed if they are so easily exploited? Geographic isolation perhaps?"<br /><br />You need exploiters to exploit it so I'd say yes to isolation. The question then becomes is there time to adapt to this exploitation or not.<br /><br />.<br /><br />"For example accumulating wood and food for the winter."<br /><br />Interesting thought.<br /><br />Guilt over laziness might be more adaptive in colder climates with guilt towards others being simply a side-effect.<br /><br />You'd have thought that would make Eskimo very guilt-prone? Although perhaps not if it's about internal pressure to do work *in advance* of when it's needed as the Arctic is fairly static.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-53919039209326875732014-01-17T13:36:23.863-05:002014-01-17T13:36:23.863-05:00"I am an Englishman, I have researched my fam..."I am an Englishman, I have researched my family tree and all my known ancestors are English and I have traced all lines back to the 18th century."<br /><br />What region out of curiosity?<br /><br />.<br /><br />"Is everyone in this thread proposing group selection? Because no one has explained how guilt benefits the individual"<br /><br />One indirect mechanism would be if it made you more attractive as a mate.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-55571481246977930732013-12-16T16:59:37.021-05:002013-12-16T16:59:37.021-05:00You can detect both in this thread and similar dis...You can detect both in this thread and similar discussions: Attempts to downplay Asian and Jewish (or some other out-group's) "cultural primitivity" and attempts to emphasize Asian and Jewish (or some other out-group's) "cultural primitivity." This is a dynamic you see generally in "HBD" discussions. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-17402864185047315822013-12-16T03:58:06.349-05:002013-12-16T03:58:06.349-05:00Embarrassment and shame are distinct emotions.
E...Embarrassment and shame are distinct emotions.<br /> <br />Embarrassment is a feeling on inadequacy, etc due to a breach of social convention with no belief that any moral wrong has happened.<br />Shame, as being used by Peter and the guilt-shame dichotomy literature, is a sense of moral wrong that occurs where awareness of moral wrong has its origin in the mind's eye of others. This is rather different than simple embarrassment or "it's alright unless you get caught". Guilt, as being used by Peter and the guilt-shame dichotomy literature, is where it occurs due to an internal trigger.<br /><br />The GSS embarrassment question is irrelevant to shame, for this reason. You can't easily conflate them as you have done perhaps in order to avoid the obvious that your understanding of this linguistic distinction is less than that of a Yahoo answers user.<br /><br />Linguistically, for what it's worth, I don't think the shame-guilt distinction as used in the literature is actually well observed by our language at all times, which is why experiments and surveys and cultural analyses with this distinction in mind are necessary, rather than trying to use the GSS for what it is not made for.<br /><br />The GSS data is good for identifying which groups are liable to feeling they have morally transgressed (even though the Asian samples are odd and small) or are liable to feeling they have made a social error, but it is not good for the purposes you are trying to turn it to. Actual papers on the experiences of guilt and shame in Asian Americans and European Americans would be more useful.<br /><br />(Side note: I feel like I detect some attempt to downplay Northeast Asian and Jewish cultural primitivity here.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-69308018860495137692013-12-15T23:24:59.897-05:002013-12-15T23:24:59.897-05:00But one thing I don't understand is how these ...<i>But one thing I don't understand is how these countries have not already collapsed if they are so easily exploited? Geographic isolation perhaps?</i><br /><br />Probably because guilt itself has nothing to do with it. There's nothing inherent in the notion of guilt that demands feelings of guilt over what contemporary political correctness demands. In the 1930s, racialist and nationalistic sentiment was common in Sweden and other Nordic countries, countries which today dutifully conform to contemporary politically correctness. When Louie Armstrong visited Sweden in the 30s, he was literally described in Swedish newspapers as being like an animal, a monkey and as being a destructive cultural influence. Had Nazi Germany won WWII and Europe were dominated by Nazi Germany today, countries like Sweden would be good little Nazis, rather than good little Cultural Marxists like they are currently under American dominance. They would feel guilty about not being good enough Nazis, not about not being good enough Cultural Marxists, like they are today.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-50880428158209667342013-12-15T17:21:15.020-05:002013-12-15T17:21:15.020-05:00People who are embarrassed do not feel that they h...<i>People who are embarrassed do not feel that they have committed a moral wrong. They feel they have committed a social faux pas</i><br /><br />All shame without guilt can <i>be</i> is a "social faux pas".<br /><br />That's the whole point here: that "shame cultures" have primitive "it's only wrong if you get caught" morality.Jason Malloyhttp://humanvarieties.org/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-57233375495480933072013-12-15T14:32:11.828-05:002013-12-15T14:32:11.828-05:00It's a distinction between a sense of moral tr...<i>It's a distinction between a sense of moral transgression where the origin of the sense of transgression is internal or external which is the subject of discussion here.</i><br /><br />It's not clear to me that the "origin" of the sense of transgression differs in guilt and shame. In both cases it would appear to ultimately derive from external moral or memetic programming.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-91149068000407006172013-12-15T07:35:24.486-05:002013-12-15T07:35:24.486-05:00Jason,
The distinction you've drawn between t...Jason,<br /><br />The distinction you've drawn between those questions doesn't seem obvious to me at all. It seems incorrect.<br />The ashamed-embarrassed distinction in speech relates to a moral-social convention distinction.<br /><br />People who are embarrassed do not feel that they have committed a moral wrong. They feel they have committed a social faux pas. They don't feel shame or guilt but embarrassment, a distinct emotion.<br /><br />It's a distinction between a sense of moral transgression where the origin of the sense of transgression is internal or external which is the subject of discussion here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-57430538896505114332013-12-14T16:34:55.754-05:002013-12-14T16:34:55.754-05:00The GSS question 'how many days have you felt ...The GSS question 'how many days have you felt ashamed of something you've done' is obviously describing guilt. The question 'how many days have you felt embarrassed' (EMBARRSS), on the other hand, is describing something more like shame.<br /><br />Many groups with higher guilt also have higher shame (Swedes, Dutch, Germans Jews, and Asians). Similarly, the English, Spaniards, and Eastern Euros have low levels of both. Blacks feel somewhat higher guilt, but lower levels of embarrassment. Scots and the Irish are lower guilt/higher embarrassment ("shame cultures"?), while Italians are lower embarrassment/higher guilt ("guilt culture"?). Once again, not much difference between Protestants and Catholics.<br /><br /><br />Scotland 1.16<br />Mexico .89<br />Sweden .87<br />Netherlands .84<br />Asian .78<br />Jewish .71<br />Germany .66<br />Irish .61<br /><br />White .61<br /><br />England .53<br />Italy .51<br />Black .49<br />Norway .48<br />Russia .48<br />France .47<br />Spain .32<br />Poland .31<br /><br />Average .61<br />SD 1.23Jason Malloyhttp://humanvarieties.org/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-9593143464837307642013-12-13T21:40:49.542-05:002013-12-13T21:40:49.542-05:00Sean,
Were you responding to my comment at 12 Dec...Sean,<br /><br />Were you responding to my comment at 12 December 2013 18:54:00 GMT-5?<br /><br />If so, I don't understand your comment. Can you explain?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-32021713158333347912013-12-13T14:40:20.368-05:002013-12-13T14:40:20.368-05:00If NW Europe has a guilt culture and 'guilt is...If NW Europe has a guilt culture and 'guilt is effective with or without a witness' then Germans ought to build great cars! A lot of people say the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic" rel="nofollow">Protestant work ethic</a> goes back to Luther. Heidegger 'knew Luther's works better than many a professional theologian' (see <a href="http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=FPAWupXILkoC&pg=PA41&dq=knew+Luther's+works+better+than+many+a+professional+theologian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7kyrUtzHD4us7Qa7yYAI&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=knew%20Luther's%20works%20better%20than%20many%20a%20professional%20theologian&f=false" rel="nofollow">here</a>). Internally generated guilt causes the cultural self-abasement of NW Europeans; a gallery politicians have to play to.Seannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-50678377678993693262013-12-13T12:36:15.951-05:002013-12-13T12:36:15.951-05:00Peter, do you have any comments on this explanatio...Peter, do you have any comments on this explanation of brachycranialis ation?<br /><br />http://rokus01.wordpress.com/2012/09/06/evolutionary-tales-behind-otzis-mesocephalic-skull/Bones and Behaviourshttp://w11.zetaboards.com/bonesandbehavioursnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-34898412471953730352013-12-12T19:19:36.820-05:002013-12-12T19:19:36.820-05:00It operates even when you act alone or merely thin...<i>It operates even when you act alone or merely think about breaking a rule. Behavior can thus be regulated in all possible situations with a minimum of surveillance.</i><br /><br /><i>The English abbot Aelfric of Eynsham (955-1010) described it as a special kind of shame where the witnesses to the wrongful act are divine entities or spirits of the dead:</i><br /><br />Is guilt operationally any different from shame with extensive or pervasive enforcement, as in a panopticon?<br /><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PanopticismAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-16011766737758907592013-12-12T18:54:40.710-05:002013-12-12T18:54:40.710-05:00The liberal competes to be thought 'good'....<i>The liberal competes to be thought 'good'. So they are not at a higher plane of morality than group selection: the 'global'; quite the opposite, liberals actually operate at the lowest level possible, which is the individual competing for a good reputation.</i><br /><br />Aren't you then suggesting that guilt isn't really involved here? If they're driven by what other people think, then wouldn't that mean they're more driven by something similar to the "external sanctions" of shame cultures?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-72763599538913436612013-12-12T16:41:45.761-05:002013-12-12T16:41:45.761-05:00The basic narrative never changes. Following Kant,...The basic narrative <i>never</i> changes. Following Kant, it insists the facts about human psychology should not constrain an ethical effort to reach the higher morality. Promising to replace a discordant collection of sectarian interests with a harmonious wider community, and taking morality to a plane where conflicts of interest will be forgotten; so everything will become serene. To articulate the narrative it <i>helps</i> to be an ethnic outsider (Austrian in Germany ect). There are abundant opportunities for <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25337945" rel="nofollow">personal aggrandisment</a> for those who know how to get on the bandwagon of the narrative. And Europeans (above all the Danes and populations descended from them, like the English) are like lambs to the mint sauce. Just like the Germans were.Seannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-70349283344868284842013-12-12T14:56:58.981-05:002013-12-12T14:56:58.981-05:00"Is everyone in this thread proposing group s..."Is everyone in this thread proposing group selection?"<br /><br />Not just on this thread.<br /><br />"<a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/11/why-we-fightand-can-we-stop/309525/" rel="nofollow">SO</a> if we’re such moral animals, why all the strife? Joshua Greene’s answer is appealingly simple. He says the problem is that we were designed to get along together in a particular context—relatively small hunter-gatherer societies. So our brains are good at reconciling us to groups we’re part of, but they’re less good at getting groups to make compromises with one another. 'Morality did not evolve to promote universal cooperation,' he writes."<br /><br />Greene (Harvard's morality expert) has a solution: transcend our biological programming and attain metamorality. Some have a head start, or do they?<br /><br /><a href="http://www.edge.org/events/the-new-science-of-morality" rel="nofollow">HAIDT</a> found the liberal and highly educated don't care about the ingroup purity. So are elite liberals transcended their biological programming? No, they are playing the most primordial game there is. <br /><br /><a href="http://edge.org/conversation/a-new-science-of-morality-part-5" rel="nofollow">Here</a>: babies few months old can use third party interactions, to work out who is 'good'. The liberal competes to be thought 'good'. So they are not at a higher plane of morality than group selection: the 'global'; quite the opposite, liberals actually operate at the lowest level possible, which is the individual competing for a good reputation.<br /><br /><a href="http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dcsvCpmwzaoC&pg=PA6&dq=alasdair+macintyre+ethics+shame&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jw-qUq6ODcXm7Abm24CQAw&ved=0CFoQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=alasdair%20macintyre%20ethics%20shame&f=false" rel="nofollow">Shame presupposes a certain sort of social order characterised by a recognised hierarchy of functions</a>.<br /><br /><a href="http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=bYjexRrPpDoC&pg=PA72&dq=graham+harman+conscience+guilt&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WxGqUo2uLaOO7AbqmYHoAw&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=graham%20harman%20conscience%20guilt&f=false" rel="nofollow">Guilt does not</a>.Seannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-19622253510297106362013-12-12T14:23:46.109-05:002013-12-12T14:23:46.109-05:00Mirco and English Anon,
People feel guilty when t...Mirco and English Anon,<br /><br />People feel guilty when they break a prescribed moral rule. This is not the same thing as breaking the law (i.e., your profitable crimes), since the law may fall into disrepute. A person can feel guilty about apartheid, even though it had the backing of the law. Conversely, many people have no problem with apparently heinous acts (murder, bombing, etc.) if such acts are perceived as being morally justified.<br /><br />It all comes down to the dominant narrative. People may have an innate need to comply with moral rules, but the actual wording of those rules is far from innate.<br /><br />Yes, we might be looking at a form of group selection, specifically the haystack model.<br /><br />Hbd chick,<br /><br />I will discuss this in my next post, and it's important to keep the word "trajectory" in mind. I'm fairly sure that the Western European Marriage Pattern is part of this same behavioral complex, i.e., high social interaction with non-kin, relatively strong tendency towards individualism, etc. If so, we're looking at something older than Anglo-Saxon times.<br />Peter Fros_noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-68164476739362921422013-12-11T22:52:45.082-05:002013-12-11T22:52:45.082-05:00a couple of thoughts -- well, one really:
"t...a couple of thoughts -- well, <a href="http://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2013/12/11/the-transition-from-shame-to-guilt-in-anglo-saxon-england-and-core-europe/" rel="nofollow">one really</a>:<br /><br /><i>"this early anglo-saxon shame-guilt thing sounds like the beginnings of a transitional phase moving from a shame culture to a guilt culture."</i><br /><br />great post! thanks! look forward to the next one. (^_^)hbd chickhttp://hbdchick.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-86287997686403217542013-12-11T03:39:07.166-05:002013-12-11T03:39:07.166-05:00@ Mirco -
The trait neuroticism, doesn't hav...@ Mirco - <br /><br />The trait neuroticism, doesn't have too much of a connection to guilt. It doesn't link to guilt-proneness as honesty-humility does. <br /><br />It is probably necessary for empathy to some degree, as a person who is in some ways honest and humble and agreeable, but has never felt pain you'll have a hard time understanding it in others, and you'll misattribute the actions of people to malice, etc.<br /><br />Trait neuroticism doesn't seem to be higher in Northern groups, however trait extroversion is lower.<br /><br />People with lower extroversion tend to be more cautious and to be less high on positive feeling in response to pleasant stimulation. So low extroversion may be a way to do as you've described and arrange for caution towards the future, etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-88512105693548626072013-12-10T22:10:37.896-05:002013-12-10T22:10:37.896-05:00Is everyone in this thread proposing group selecti...Is everyone in this thread proposing group selection? Because no one has explained how guilt benefits the individual feeling this emotion. Unless the risk of being found out is too high, why would people feel bad about things, it seems they have gotten away with?<br /><br />I am an Englishman, I have researched my family tree and all my known ancestors are English and I have traced all lines back to the 18th century. But it seems I am a very unusual Englishman. All my known ancestors come from the centers of out breeding and individualism. But despite having An IQ much higher than average, I am very ethnocentric and racist, have strong emotional bonds with my cousins, like to have as many family in my house as possible. And now I realize that I mainly feel shame where most feel guilt. In fact I feel quite good about profitable crimes I have gotten away with, as society becomes more diverse I feel less attachment to it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-8686592594603154292013-12-10T18:02:57.439-05:002013-12-10T18:02:57.439-05:00My theory is "guilt" is an effect of the...My theory is "guilt" is an effect of the neurotic trait.<br />People feel guilty when they believe or feel they have not done what they believe was the right thing to do.<br /><br />The neurotic trait is useful in northern, colder, climates because push people to worry about the future and act to prevent possible bad outcomes. For example accumulating wood and food for the winter.<br />Guilt is an useful emotion because it gives the drive to make right what was done wrong.<br />A person feeling guilty would be more prone to confess her wrongdoing to his kin or neighbours. In an harsh habitat this would increase the coping ability of the group, because it would allow the group to fix problems earlier and prevent greater problems later.<br /><br />painlord2k@gmail.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04566115851088917514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-7414179495881275652013-12-10T13:35:13.374-05:002013-12-10T13:35:13.374-05:00Staffan,
"one thing I don't understand i...Staffan,<br /><br />"one thing I don't understand is how these countries have not already collapsed if they are so easily exploited?"<br /><br />In the past, those societies were highly prejudiced against outsiders, perhaps more so than other societies were. That prejudice against outsiders disintegrated in the late 20th century when it was shown to be irrational and/or immoral.<br /><br />"there is a meta-study on anxiety disorders that found a higher incidence in "Euro/Anglo cultures." <br /><br />That meta-study is based on studies published between 1980 and 2009. This was a period when victim groups were expanding exponentially. Victimhood status was being granted to people who, not so long ago, would have been treated with scorn.<br /><br />"Shame doesn't really solve the free rider problem that much better than guilt, although in small group contexts where people don't move around very much (or break their ties), there might be some superiority."<br /><br />I would say that shame is less effective than guilt, since the wrongdoing has to be witnessed in order to produce shame. Guilt is effective with or without a witness.<br /><br />Both guilt and shame seem to have developed in larger, more complex societies where most social interactions are no longer with close kin. This is something I need to research more, but my take on the literature is that small band societies have much less shaming and much less guilt-mongering. The pressure to do the "right thing" comes directly from close kin who are recognized as being close kin. In any case, if you antagonize your close kin, the negative conséquences are obvious and immediate.<br /><br />Things are different in larger non-kin societies where it is easier to evade both detection and retaliaton.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> Peter Fros_noreply@blogger.com