tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post8733459513424935070..comments2024-03-22T15:55:34.030-04:00Comments on Evo and Proud: Female face shape and sexual selectionPeter Frosthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04303172060029254340noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-73487832085561142292012-10-25T09:56:29.947-04:002012-10-25T09:56:29.947-04:00"In fact, an argument can be made that the pr..."In fact, an argument can be made that the pressure of sexual selection has now shifted to men. "<br /><br />And sexy men are violent men. Won't the future be grand.chrisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-29693935847417547692009-10-06T07:12:14.716-04:002009-10-06T07:12:14.716-04:00"the greater robustness of a homo erectus sku..."<b>the greater robustness of a homo erectus skull does not imply that erectus had greater amounts of testosterone</b> <br /> To my way of thinking it does.<br /><br /> <b>Australoid women may have more robust brow bridges than many European men, but this does not imply that Australoid women are more masculinized than European men.</b> In a sense it does.<br /><br /><br /><b>So there are alleles that determine facial structures (and perception of femininity) unrelated to hormonal differentiation, and , e.g. in populations where men have greater influence over sexual selection, we might expect an increase in both hormonally mediated and non-hormonally mediated pathways to gracilization</b><br /> How can they be unrelated if they increase together ?<br /><br /><b>Where male choice is predominant</b> (which requires a favorable <i>operational</i> sex ratio) <b>the population has lower fetal testosterone, and therefore less facial masculinity and higher digit ratios-- which is what we find in Europeans</b>.<br /> Not in the Baltic and Finland we don't.<br /><br /><b>Holland didn't argue that Europeans have lower prenatal testosterone or higher digit ratios.</b>.<br />He wouldn't cite that fact as it's evidence that Europeans are feminized. He does argue that Finns and Swedes are more masculine because they have low 2D:4D.<br /><br /><b> He argued that N. Europeans have finer features for reasons entirely unrelated to sex hormones</b>.<br />But he never explains how that could happen without an operational sex ratio favourable to selection of the 'derived' features. He makes his case with some very unsavoury comparisons, your description of the essay ( "aesthetic variation") and link suggests you approve.<br /><br /><b>JT Manning has found this in some modern populations. But if this had always been the case there would have been directional selection for lower digit ratios, and no more genetically mediated variation in digit ratio. Instead, almost 80% of the current variation is due to genes.</b> <br />It was the selection on women's 2D:4D which altered men's in the same direction - higher. Just like face shape.<br /><br /><b>Non-monogamous men wouldn't have had greater reproductive success in the historical ecologies of Northern Europe.</b><br />Monogamous low 2D:4D men would though.Todnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-26329761709364718502009-10-01T20:02:11.705-04:002009-10-01T20:02:11.705-04:00"Holland needs to come up with that reason&qu...<i>"Holland needs to come up with that reason"</i><br /><br />Holland didn't argue that Europeans have lower prenatal testosterone or higher digit ratios. He argued that N. Europeans have finer features for reasons entirely unrelated to sex hormones.<br /><br /><br /><i>"It would defeat the object for a female to select the man with the most delicate features as the trait produces high 2D:4D sons; it reduces reproductive success in men"</i><br /><br />JT Manning has found this in some modern populations. But if this had always been the case there would have been directional selection for lower digit ratios, and no more genetically mediated variation in digit ratio. Instead, almost <a href="http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18667341" rel="nofollow">80%</a> of the current variation is due to genes.<br /><br /><a href="http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.psyneuen.2005.05.009" rel="nofollow">Non-monogamous men</a> wouldn't have had greater reproductive success in the historical ecologies of Northern European.Jason Malloyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04855482153162314172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-83616816583046577432009-10-01T16:58:09.414-04:002009-10-01T16:58:09.414-04:00"In fact gracization of the facial features a...<i>"In fact gracization of the facial features also raises 2D:4D ratio by reducing testosteronization which is a non-estrogen based channel."</i><br /><br /><br />More accurately, higher prenatal testosterone increases both facial masculinity as well as the length of the ring finger relative to the index finger.<br /><br /><br /><br /><i>"A trait that raises 2D:4D, as facial gracilization does, is most unlikely to have resulted from female choice or competition among men for women."</i><br /><br /><br />Digit ratios are highly influenced by sexual selection, since they are a consequence of testosterone levels, and testosterone levels are a primary target of sexual selection.<br /><br />Where male choice is predominant, the population has lower fetal testosterone, and therefore less facial masculinity and higher digit ratios-- which is what we find in Europeans.<br /><br />Where female choice is predominant, the population has higher fetal testosterone, and therefore more facial masculinity and lower digit ratios-- which is what we find in Africans.Jason Malloyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04855482153162314172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-59608138222350735222009-10-01T16:09:56.173-04:002009-10-01T16:09:56.173-04:00"facial gracilization" is a trait that i...<i>"facial gracilization" is a trait that is not independent of 2D:4D.</i><br /><br /><br />Obviously sex hormones are involved in facial masculinization, which includes robusticity. But sex hormones don't mediate all robusticity, which is why e.g. the greater robustness of a <i>homo erectus</i> skull does not imply that erectus had greater amounts of testosterone.<br /><br />Likewise, brow ridges may become more prominent with masculine development, and Australoid women may have more robust brow bridges than many European men, but this does <i>not</i> imply that Australoid women are more masculinized than European men.<br /><br />So there are alleles that determine facial structures (and perception of femininity) unrelated to hormonal differentiation, and, e.g. in populations where men have greater influence over sexual selection, we might expect an increase in both hormonally mediated and non-hormonally mediated pathways to gracilization.Jason Malloyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04855482153162314172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-51033916394572662642009-10-01T13:29:14.659-04:002009-10-01T13:29:14.659-04:00"Holland argues that Europeans, esp Northern ..."Holland argues that Europeans, esp Northern Europeans, have facial gracilization which mimics femininity"<br /><br />As the link shows "facial gracilization" is a trait that is not independent of 2D:4D. In fact gracization of the facial features also raises 2D:4D ratio by reducing testosteronization which is a non-estrogen based channel.<br /><br />A trait that raises 2D:4D, as facial gracilization does, is most unlikely to have resulted from female choice or competition among men for women. It would defeat the object for a female to select the man with the most delicate features as the trait produces high 2D:4D sons; it reduces reproductive success <i>in men</i>. I don't see how selection of delicate featured men could never become 'runaway' as it is self limiting (unless the low 2D:4D men are not reproducing for some reason). Holland needs to come up with that reason.Todnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-16329116195431578222009-09-30T03:52:03.251-04:002009-09-30T03:52:03.251-04:00Ha, that page isn't safe for eyeballs. I apolo...Ha, that page isn't safe for eyeballs. I apologize if my warning wasn't clear enough: <b>ACHTUNG: HICK PORN</b>.<br /><br />It's an interesting HBD website nonetheless.<br /><br />The purpose of the link, btw, was that Holland <a href="http://www.femininebeauty.info/masculinization-feminization-in-men" rel="nofollow">argues</a> that Europeans, esp Northern Europeans, have facial gracilization which mimics femininity. Which applies to the argument of male directed sexual selection moving the population phenotype, including through non-estrogen based channels.<br /><br />African females display the opposite-- skeletal robusticity-- indicating female based sexual selection driving the population phenotype.Jason Malloyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04855482153162314172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-8995847736287085212009-09-29T14:15:28.465-04:002009-09-29T14:15:28.465-04:00That page is not work safe. Tactless Erik at his w...That page is not work safe. Tactless Erik at his worst, and its all wrong.<br /> "population differences in aesthetic variation" <br /><br />Have you really read or understood <a href="http://www.jsecjournal.com/NEEPSfrost.pdf" rel="nofollow">Sexual Selection and Human Geographic Variation</a> ?Todnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-26682441156947709422009-09-28T20:26:36.274-04:002009-09-28T20:26:36.274-04:00"There could, for instance, be selection for ...<i>"There could, for instance, be selection for women who look more feminine for reasons unrelated to...estrogen"</i><br /><br />Speaking of "pseudo-feminization," those with a high tolerance for trailer park erotica might find Erik Holland's 7 page <a href="http://www.femininebeauty.info/ethnic-comparisons" rel="nofollow">web-essay</a> on population differences in aesthetic variation worth a read.Jason Malloyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04855482153162314172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-17126917827409905002009-09-28T09:13:54.216-04:002009-09-28T09:13:54.216-04:00Do you think the heavy beard growth in European me...Do you think the heavy beard growth in European men could have evolved though selection against the appearance of femininised looks in men?<br /><br />It seems odd that in their prime reproductive years European males' facial features are concealed. The shape of the jaw is said to be particularly significant for female attractiveness, male jaws may have been shifted to a greater extent than other features. If male jaws ended up 'feminized' then beards could be a quick and simple solution to the new situation.Todnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-25604177275834839902009-09-27T11:03:48.329-04:002009-09-27T11:03:48.329-04:00Robert8,
Intense sexual selection of women prevai...Robert8,<br /><br />Intense sexual selection of women prevailed among ancestral Europeans during the last ice age. Today, there's very little sexual selection of women anywhere. In fact, an argument can be made that the pressure of sexual selection has now shifted to men. The 'European singularity' has been pretty much abolished.<br /><br />Tod,<br /><br />In this case, sexual selection has probably accentuated the femininity of European female faces, and secondarily European male faces, by making certain parts of the face more responsive to circulating estrogen during early development (by increasing the number of estrogen receptors or by favoring receptor variants that are more estrogen-sensitive).<br /><br />This being said, selection acts on phenotypes, and only indirectly on genotypes. If there is selection for women who look more feminine, it doesn't really matter how this comes about developmentally. There could, for instance, be selection for women who look more feminine for reasons unrelated to their prenatal level of circulating estrogen or the estrogen responsiveness of their body tissues.Peter Frostnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-66663372874826939402009-09-25T07:13:17.829-04:002009-09-25T07:13:17.829-04:002D:4D and Sexually Dimorphic Facial Characteristic...<a href="http://www.springerlink.com/content/886l39768g8q43x8/" rel="nofollow">2D:4D and Sexually Dimorphic Facial Characteristics</a><br />"High (feminine) values of 2D:4D were associated with feminine facial characteristics in women, but not in men."<br /><br />Maybe this is a example of "<i>additional significant correlations that were not seen in males</i>" ?<br /><br /><br /><a href="http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/valenzano.pdf" rel="nofollow">Shape analysis of female facial atractiveness</a><br />"Attractivness is not coincident with exaggeration of sexual dimorphism, but is associated with a specific pattern of shape variation, particularly in the jaw"<br /><br /><br /><a href="http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1559906&rendertype=figure&id=fig2" rel="nofollow">Visualization of the shape regression on 2D : 4D ratio</a> (averaged among both hands) within males. <br /><br />Softer food is often suggested to have led to changes in facial morphology, however <a href="http://johnhawks.net/weblog/reviews/archaeology/upper/europe/viegas-pavlov-vi-mammoth-2009.html" rel="nofollow">Mammoth "luau-style"</a> 29,000 B.C. <br /><br />[Jiri] Svoboda, a professor at the University of Brno and director of its Institute of Archaeology, and colleagues recently excavated Pavlov VI, where they found the remains of a female mammoth and one mammoth calf near a 4-foot-wide roasting pit. Arctic fox, wolverine, bear and hare remains were also found, along with a few horse and reindeer bones.<br /><br />"The meats were cooked luau-style underground. Svoboda said, We found the heating stones still within the pit and around."<br /><br />The presence of "heating stones" and "boiling pits" clearly indicates that (nice and tender) slow cooked meat was being eaten by 29,000 BC, therefor changes to the shape of jaws and dental crowding ought to have first shown up 14,000 years before they actually did if softer food had anything to do with those changes. <br /><br /><br /><a href="http://ejo.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/26/2/151.pdf" rel="nofollow">Dental crowding in a prehistoric population</a><br /><br />"All of the mandibles presented incisor crowding with a majority of minimal and moderate irregularities, but in seven cases there were extreme irregularities and in two canine impaction was observed. These results are in contrast with the literature where it is reported that malocclusions were rare in prehistoric populations. The findings of this study suggest that crowding may be of a genetic origin and might not be caused by excessive tooth size or changes in environmental factors (masticatory activity)."<br /><br /><b>This was particularly so on continental steppe-tundra, where women had almost no opportunities for food gathering and where men had to hunt wandering herds of herbivores over long distances</b><br /><br /><br /><a href="http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0007070" rel="nofollow">Nutrient-Specific Food Intake and Are Under Recent Selection in Europeans</a><br />They theorise selection for choosing low carb food dates from "the transition to new food sources during the agriculture revolution around 11,000 years ago". Why would there be selection for a farming population not to enjoy eating grains or milk?<br />Surely adaptation would be to the foods which were in plentiful in that time.<br /><br /> More likely those who prefer less carbohydrate rich foods have retained a taste for low carb eating that would have been most adaptive when meat (wandering herds of herbivores) was all there was to eat.Todnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-86083911322783532812009-09-24T17:13:11.417-04:002009-09-24T17:13:11.417-04:00What about now in countries populated by europeans...What about now in countries populated by europeans (Autralia, North america, Europe) ?Robert8noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3734925856292601239.post-81534145134473717192009-09-24T14:22:53.977-04:002009-09-24T14:22:53.977-04:00Shape analysis of female facial atractiveness
Sec...<a href="http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/valenzano.pdf" rel="nofollow">Shape analysis of female facial atractiveness</a><br /><br /><a href="http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/272/1576/1995.full.pdf" rel="nofollow">Second to fourth digit ratio and face shape</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.springerlink.com/content/886l39768g8q43x8/" rel="nofollow">2D:4D and Sexually Dimorphic Facial Characteristics</a>Todnoreply@blogger.com